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Old 10-08-2012, 02:09 AM   #81
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If you choose to ignore it or somehow otherwise mistakenly believe it is subjective, that is your prerogative. .
Thank you

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Old 10-08-2012, 02:30 AM   #82
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Sorry bosco, its really not that complicated. High density wort increases the osmotic pressure on the yeast cell membrane relative to pure water. Increased osmotic pressure leads to yeast stress and increased levels of cell death, again relative to hydration in a 1.000 gm/cm3 solution. Here's just one of many peer-reviewed papers on the subject.

At its core, this is a simple principle, along the lines of something elementary - like helium is less dense than air. It is not up for debate. If you choose to ignore it or somehow otherwise mistakenly believe it is subjective, that is your prerogative. But it doesn't change the facts.

You "punched out" on post 42.
How can anybody believe anything you say?

However, I wonder what the "science" will say in 20 - 30 years time. I suspect that it will be very different to what is believed (by some) to be accurate now.

-a.
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Old 10-08-2012, 04:31 AM   #83
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I am familiar with Lallemand and Scott and both recommend rehydration for optimum yeast health. Rehydration is done with fairly warm water, 106F, and provides the necessary heat and moisture to rehydrate and "unfold" the dehydrated cell membrane. Without this procedure, the yeast cell membrane can remain in a deformed state (which is permanent) making the cell unable to function properly. In wine making, dry yeast is used almost exclusively and I have yet to meet a wine maker that does not rehydrate.

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Old 10-08-2012, 05:30 AM   #84
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In wine making, dry yeast is used almost exclusively and I have yet to meet a wine maker that does not rehydrate.
hello.
never rehydrate when making wine. And I made wine a lot longer than I've made beer.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:07 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by ajf View Post
You "punched out" on post 42.
How can anybody believe anything you say?

However, I wonder what the "science" will say in 20 - 30 years time. I suspect that it will be very different to what is believed (by some) to be accurate now.

-a.
You're right, I should stay away, but the willful ignorance is really maddening.

It is actually an interesting observation of human behavior...people will sometimes believe what they want to believe to suit an internal bias, regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Just a sampling of the nonsense in this thread (paraphrasing):

"The science must be wrong".
"It hasn't been tested by every person under every imaginable condition, therefore it may not be true'".
"My shortcuts work, so there's nothing to discuss".
"The science will be different in 20 years".
"You continued a discussion when you said you wouldn't, therefore you have no credibility".

The whole thing is really kind of laughable to the objective observer.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:01 PM   #86
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You're right, I should stay away, but the willful ignorance is really maddening.

The whole thing is really kind of laughable to the objective observer.
I think most folks are not ignorant of the "science", however they seem to have differing opinions on how important it really is when brewing.

As an objective observer I don't care how you or anyone else pitches their yeast. Rehydrate, dry, starter or not, I don't care if you throw the packet in the wort unopened for that matter.

My objective experience over the last several decades, although contrary to what was considered fact and the only way to do things, has shown me that a secondary is not essential for a good beer. I have skipped that step throughout all my brewing years and although my experiences and beers were good (excellent for the most part...Sorry but that is a subjective opinion) I have never claimed my method was as good as or better than another, even though the science of the times frowned on my method.

As far as the OP. I have never had a problem with Nottingham. No slow starts, stalls or any of the other varied fermentation problems. I pitch dry on the foam caused by pouring from the kettle to the fermenter. I do not stir it in or aerate the wort in any other fashion.. I brew all brown ales with original gravities from 1.050 to 1.065. 11 grams of yeast has always served me well when pitched at around 70 degrees and then brought down to the mid 60's. Nottingham from 65 up can get wild so I like to keep it controlled at <65. It is fast, clean and the trub if given enough time lays on the bottom like a wet blanket.

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Old 10-08-2012, 01:24 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by boscobeans View Post
I think most folks are not ignorant of the "science", however they seem to have differing opinions on how important it really is when brewing.

As an objective observer I don't care how you or anyone else pitches their yeast. Rehydrate, dry, starter or not, I don't care if you throw the packet in the wort unopened for that matter.

My objective experience over the last several decades, although contrary to what was considered fact and the only way to do things, has shown me that a secondary is not essential for a good beer. I have skipped that step throughout all my brewing years and although my experiences and beers were good (excellent for the most part...Sorry but that is a subjective opinion) I have never claimed my method was as good as or better than another, even though the science of the times frowned on my method.

As far as the OP. I have never had a problem with Nottingham. No slow starts, stalls or any of the other varied fermentation problems. I pitch dry on the foam caused by pouring from the kettle to the fermenter. I do not stir it in or aerate the wort in any other fashion.. I brew all brown ales with original gravities from 1.050 to 1.065. 11 grams of yeast has always served me well when pitched at around 70 degrees and then brought down to the mid 60's. Nottingham from 65 up can get wild so I like to keep it controlled at <65. It is fast, clean and the trub if given enough time lays on the bottom like a wet blanket.

bosco
And again you, like so many others, are debating whether or not underpitching makes a difference or not. "Science" didn't say to use a secondary. That was common brewing practice based on people's experience. Science is saying that not rehydrating yeast causes cell death. Now some people's brewing practice may find that unnecessary. Maybe 20 years from now they'll think that pitching 200 billion cells for a 1.060 wort was silly. Maybe it doesn't really make a difference. But what it does do is cut down on the number of yeast. If you're the type of person that is trying to pitch what professional brewers have determined as the "proper" amount of yeast, and you're using dry yeast, you should probably rehydrate (assuming your recipe calls for an entire packet). If you're not, carry on.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:53 PM   #88
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It is actually an interesting observation of human behavior...people will sometimes believe what they want to believe to suit an internal bias, regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
What I find most interesting is that YOU'RE doing exactly this.
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:52 PM   #89
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What I find most interesting is that YOU'RE doing exactly this.
That's not exactly true.
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:56 PM   #90
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I just added a third subject to my list of things not to debate in a bar..

1. Religion
2. Politics
3. Pitching yeast

To each his own

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