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Old 05-09-2012, 08:27 PM   #1
imperialipa
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Default Not Chilling immediately After Boil?

So I have been compiling a bunch of IPA clone recipies. Quite a few of them have you cover the pot after flame out and let sit for 15-30 min.

I am goign to assume this is for the benefit or Hops you add at flame out.

Anyone else try this? What exactly would this do? When you add Hops at flame out its considered a flavor addition as opposed to a bittering or aroma addition correct?

Think this would just intensify the hop flavor in the beer?



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Old 05-09-2012, 08:34 PM   #2
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With the addition of it after flameout and the wort still hot(close to boil) it will def. be more of a aroma. I have never done the hop additions after flameout.
I would try it with less then more hops because you can always dry hop to your liking..

Edit: This is what Hopbacks do..



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Old 05-10-2012, 01:36 AM   #3
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Many brewers allow their wort to sit for 10 mins after flameout for convection currents to stop, then they whirlpool, and allow to sit for another 10-20 mins for the trub cone to form.

That's your 15-30 min delay.

If you have a delay then that will affect late hops and that is part of recipe design

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Old 05-10-2012, 11:58 AM   #4
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The flame out hop additions are for flavor and aroma. Some people say that flame out additions give similar results to dry hopping.

What it does more specifically is allow the wort temp to drop so you don't drive off as many of the volatile components from the hop oils in comparison to boiling temps. Letting it sit just helps to extract more flavors and aromas from the hops.

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Old 05-10-2012, 12:50 PM   #5
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I always add my flameout additions for a long, 40-60 minute hop stand when the wort is approx. 150-160 F. I get better aroma this way vs. adding them directly after flameout.

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Old 05-10-2012, 02:07 PM   #6
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For a while, I was doing 30 minute hot whirlpools before chilling. Then I stopped and went back to immidiate chilling after the flame out addition. Now I have switched back to doing the long hot whirlpools or "hot stands".
After quite a bit of experience with both methods, I really prefer to perform the hot whirlpool.

There are a couple things you need to think about when designing your recipe before you employ a method like this.

The first thing you need to realize is that when left hot, alpha acids will continue to isomerize and generate bitterness. You do not need to be boiling to perform this action, you just need to be over about 175F. Yes, you get a lot of aroma and flavor from a hotstand/whirlpool, but you also get a ton of bitterness.

Next, you need to realize that any hop you added during the boil has effectively been moved back in the boil for as long as the whirlpool you conducted. To explain, lets look at a traditional hop schedule for a American Pale Ale.

.5 oz Magnum @ 60
.5 oz Cascade @ 30
1 oz Cascade @ 10
1 oz of Cascade @ flameout (and immidiate chilling)

If you took that same schedule and employed a 30 minute hot stand with the flame out hops, your schedule would effectively be

.5 oz Magnum @ 90 (or whatever the max time of your boil is)
.5 oz Cascade @ 60
1 oz Cascade @ 40
1 oz Cascade @ 30

I know that utilization does not scale nice and linearly as I laid out, but I am just trying to illustrate the point that hops in the boil that you intended to add for flavor and aroma will all essentially become bittering additions. You will still have good aroma and flavor, but the bitterness will be thrown way overboard and your beer may not have the balance you planned.

To get a similar bittering effect while using a hot stand, that APA recipe would need to look more like this:

.1 oz Magnum @ 60
.5 oz Cascade @ 30
1.5 oz Cascade @ flameout (and allow wort to remain unchilled for 30 minutes)

This bitterness post flameout is kind of a tough concept to accept, so I urge anyone interested to search the clone recipes for CYBI - Firestone Walker that Eric has posted, and more importantly listen to the podcasts. Specifically, check out the Union Jack episode. You will find that the recipes use 2 boil additions and 1 addition at flameout that is to be left for a hot whirlpool. The quantity for boil additions pale in comparison to the addition made at flameout. Try the method and decide for yourself if you get ample bittering from a large hot whirlpool addition and relatively small boil additions. I think you'll be pleased.

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Old 05-10-2012, 02:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfowler1 View Post
The first thing you need to realize is that when left hot, alpha acids will continue to isomerize and generate bitterness. You do not need to be boiling to perform this action, you just need to be over about 175F. Yes, you get a lot of aroma and flavor from a hotstand/whirlpool, but you also get a ton of bitterness.
You have the right idea, but you're goal is wrong. Increased aroma and fresh hop character should be the reason for a flameout addition... not added bitterness... and the bitterness would NOT be substantial. For the goal of adding aroma, I found it best to add my flameout hops to warm (not hot) wort. 100-160 F is a good general guideline. But a 5 or 10 minute steep won't get you far. I suggest chilling your wort as quickly as possible to about 160 F, then focus on long, slow-cooling so the flameout hops that you add at this point will give you ALL of their aromatic potential. For my IPAs, I always follow this up with a significant dryhop of course. Even though some people may suggest that you could do one or the other with similar results, I have not found this to be true.
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:03 PM   #8
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So I think what I will try to do is at flameout drop the temp to 160ish. Add my Flameout hops and let sit for 20 more min. Then drop the temp to pitchable temp.

I certainly dont want to extract any mroe bitterness if possible buecasue my recipie has all the built in IBU it needs and Beersmith adds no IBU for Flameout hop additions.

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Old 05-10-2012, 07:18 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
You have the right idea, but you're goal is wrong. Increased aroma and fresh hop character should be the reason for a flameout addition... not added bitterness... and the bitterness would NOT be substantial. For the goal of adding aroma, I found it best to add my flameout hops to warm (not hot) wort. 100-160 F is a good general guideline. But a 5 or 10 minute steep won't get you far. I suggest chilling your wort as quickly as possible to about 160 F, then focus on long, slow-cooling so the flameout hops that you add at this point will give you ALL of their aromatic potential. For my IPAs, I always follow this up with a significant dryhop of course. Even though some people may suggest that you could do one or the other with similar results, I have not found this to be true.
I think he is saying the increased bitterness will be coming from the other hop additions that have now been isomerizing (?) longer b/c of the hop stand.
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfowler1 View Post
For a while, I was doing 30 minute hot whirlpools before chilling. Then I stopped and went back to immidiate chilling after the flame out addition. Now I have switched back to doing the long hot whirlpools or "hot stands".
After quite a bit of experience with both methods, I really prefer to perform the hot whirlpool.
What made you switch back? Did you try both ways with the same beer and just like the hop stand method beer better?


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