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Old 02-26-2009, 04:22 PM   #41
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The point here is really academic. I think the problem here is distinguishing wort from beer. Botulism can survive in wort according to "Food Authenticity and Traceability" by Michele Lees, but once the yeast is pitched the botulism will die.

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Old 02-26-2009, 04:30 PM   #42
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Keep us posted Pol on how it works.
IF I survive...
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:52 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by noisy123 View Post
The point here is really academic. I think the problem here is distinguishing wort from beer. Botulism can survive in wort according to "Food Authenticity and Traceability" by Michele Lees, but once the yeast is pitched the botulism will die.
FWIW, if the botulism bacteria do in fact grow in the wort (which it seems the aussie empirical evidence says they don't), if they were killed once the yeast is pitched, it doesn't mean it's safe - the toxin they produce is still there. the main cause of botulism in adults isn't from consuming the bacteria but from consuming the toxin.
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:58 PM   #44
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Methinks John Palmer, as well as the editorial staff (and maybe even legal department) of BYO would NOT have written up the process if the potential to die were there. How come most of the time we worship the ground he walks on...yet in this case because it goes against what we've been told, it suddenly is suspect??? Did JP suddenly become dumb???


Good point.

I raised the concern b/c it was mentioned that the wort keep forever if sealed in that cube. I have little experience w/ C. botulinum and it’s toxin. I just know that it can grow in wort (especially since sealed wort is void of O2). But I don’t know how long you have to leave wort unpitched for it to become dangerous.

Surely it seems to work and I don’t argue w/ that. I’m just curious as to why and if there is a risk, where are the boundaries.

The assumption that beer won’t kill you is based on the fact that it won’t remain unpitched for long.

Don’t give JP too much credit. Some of the recent Brew Strong episodes weren’t as strong as I hoped for. I thought it was common knowledge that the CO2 content of air is way less then 1% and that you should never drop anything into a liquid that is boiled in a smooth glass container. I did it once and had a hot wort volcano going.

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Old 02-26-2009, 05:30 PM   #45
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FWIW, if the botulism bacteria do in fact grow in the wort (which it seems the aussie empirical evidence says they don't), if they were killed once the yeast is pitched, it doesn't mean it's safe - the toxin they produce is still there. the main cause of botulism in adults isn't from consuming the bacteria but from consuming the toxin.
I see, I thought the bacteria were the problem. From the text I cited just about anything will grow in wort if given the right conditions. The question then is Kaiser's above: how much toxin can be produced?

I'll refer you all to the following thread where the issue of toxins in starter was discussed:
Beer and Homebrew Forums - Brew-Monkey.Com - Foodpoisoning
The conclusion they come to, based on a food safety expert's opinion, is that the safest way to prepare wort for future use is to heat above spore-killing temps (i.e. with a pressure cooker).
Apparently this issue was addressed in the 9/06 and 11/06 issues of BYO.

Not saying I wouldn't drink a beer brewed this way. I absolutely would, but facts are facts.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:31 PM   #46
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I would agree that the concern is the botulism toxin, not the bacteria itself (as that will get killed during fermentation). For all we know the toxin would get denatured during fermentation as well, but I don't know how to prove that.

I've wondered about this method as well, and would really simplify AG brewing.

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Old 02-26-2009, 07:35 PM   #47
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Watch out -- there's a new mod in Dodge today!

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Yeah, let's get back to the original topic at hand...

My only concern would be the lack of a quick cold break, which as OUR common wisdom has it, happens if you don't chill quickly.

IIRC the article said that that isn't really an issue for them...I can't recall if palmer said that their beer is still clear because the used finnings or did something else during fermentation, or because they don't care...
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:35 PM   #48
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Well, if I live, there is no concern. If I die, well... you will know.

If Crocodile Dundee can do it, so can I...

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Old 02-26-2009, 07:46 PM   #49
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So am I the only dude trying this? My beer is going to rock... Aussies are innovators. We are simply followers

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Old 02-26-2009, 07:47 PM   #50
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I’m not sure how much data there is regarding the amount of cold trub and the speed of chilling. Here is an experiment that we can do:

At the end of the boil fill 2 closable vials with hot break free wort. Drop one on room temp water and the other in a large pot with 100C water. Now let both coast down to room temp and compare the amount of haze in them after they have the same temp.

All this tells us is that haze stability of the final beer should be evaluated if we are doing a side-by-side for no-chill vs. standard chilling.

Kai
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