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Old 03-26-2010, 01:20 AM   #1
jaobrien6
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Default New to all-grain, please help educate me on some of the results I'm getting.

So I've made 2 all-grain batches now, and I'm still understanding a lot of the nuances of the process and recipe creation. What I'm looking at now, is 2 beers that turned out noticeably different, and would like some help understanding what differences most likely contributed the most, so I can decide where to go next with this.

Both beers were intended to be IPA's. The big difference that I see between them is that the first was noticeably maltier than the second. Here's the relevant details:

Beer 1:
12 lb 2 row
1 lb munich
3/4 lb crystal 60
Mashed at 154
OG: 1.064
FG: 1.013

Beer 2:
13 lb 2-row
1/2 lb wheat malt
1/2 lb carapils
1/2 lb crystal 40
1/2 lb light DME
Mashed at 149 (sorta)
OG: 1.059
FG: 1.013

So here's my question. I know there's a lot different between the 2. I'm trying to understand what probably contributed the most, or if it was just a mixture of everything.
1. Lower mash temp. Obviously this would make it less malty, from what I've read.
2. Different grain bill. There was a noticeably different grain bill, and I added DME because my efficiency on batch 2 was terrible.
3. Inconsistencies in batch 2. I totally messed up my mash temp, started too high, and overcorrected, and left it at 149 'cause i had no hot water left. I didn't mix up my mash well enough, I noticed, when I was done.

Yeast was 1056 for both, fermentation temps were about the same, attenuation was close-ish.

What I think I was shooting for, in terms of maltiness, is something about in the middle, maybe closer to batch 2 (I don't like my IPA's too malty, but batch 2 is pretty dry). So is it all mash temp? Does that recipe have something to do with it? Is there something else I haven't even thought of that I might have done differently?

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Old 03-26-2010, 01:41 AM   #2
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Was the OG for number 2 before or after you added the DME? Most DME is highly fermentable so that may have contributed to a drier taste but your mash temp I would guess did the most difference. You could take a college science class on how mash temps affect the enzymes in starch conversion but you are right generally the lower the temp the more fermentable sugars you get and thus at drier beer.

From the numbers you posted I would guess beer 2 just got really bad efficiency coupled with a low mash temp and the DME is what caused to to have a far drier and less flavorful malt profile.
Both of your beers seem to be well attenuated are these 10 gal batches I assume?

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Old 03-26-2010, 02:03 AM   #3
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Quote:
1. Lower mash temp. Obviously this would make it less malty, from what I've read.
Yes it would. Hard to tell from just looking, but I would think the first is darker; which effects the wort and taste too.

Quote:
2. Different grain bill. There was a noticeably different grain bill, and I added DME because my efficiency on batch 2 was terrible.
The munich malt is often added for maltiness, while carapils adds body but no malt flavor.

Quote:
3. Inconsistencies in batch 2. I totally messed up my mash temp, started too high, and overcorrected, and left it at 149 'cause i had no hot water left. I didn't mix up my mash well enough, I noticed, when I was done.
Lower mash temp will lead to more attenuation and less body.
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:13 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaobrien6 View Post
So I've made 2 all-grain batches now, and I'm still understanding a lot of the nuances of the process and recipe creation. What I'm looking at now, is 2 beers that turned out noticeably different, and would like some help understanding what differences most likely contributed the most, so I can decide where to go next with this.

Both beers were intended to be IPA's. The big difference that I see between them is that the first was noticeably maltier than the second. Here's the relevant details:

Beer 1:
12 lb 2 row
1 lb munich
3/4 lb crystal 60
Mashed at 154
OG: 1.064
FG: 1.013

Beer 2:
13 lb 2-row
1/2 lb wheat malt
1/2 lb carapils
1/2 lb crystal 40
1/2 lb light DME
Mashed at 149 (sorta)
OG: 1.059
FG: 1.013

So here's my question. I know there's a lot different between the 2. I'm trying to understand what probably contributed the most, or if it was just a mixture of everything.
1. Lower mash temp. Obviously this would make it less malty, from what I've read.
2. Different grain bill. There was a noticeably different grain bill, and I added DME because my efficiency on batch 2 was terrible.
3. Inconsistencies in batch 2. I totally messed up my mash temp, started too high, and overcorrected, and left it at 149 'cause i had no hot water left. I didn't mix up my mash well enough, I noticed, when I was done.

Yeast was 1056 for both, fermentation temps were about the same, attenuation was close-ish.

What I think I was shooting for, in terms of maltiness, is something about in the middle, maybe closer to batch 2 (I don't like my IPA's too malty, but batch 2 is pretty dry). So is it all mash temp? Does that recipe have something to do with it? Is there something else I haven't even thought of that I might have done differently?
This all seems reasonable to me.

The first had munich and more and darker crystal malts that are going to give a maltier taste. It was also mashed at a higher temp for the most part, which is going to mean a less fermentable (hence maltier) wort. And the second had some wheat malt, which is a way to get a lighter, thinner body.

If you're aiming for the middle, first off control your variables--do the same grain bill but alter the mash temp, or do the same mash temp but alter the grain bill. Changing both at once makes it hard to learn the effects of one thing on the outcome.
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:16 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerMan View Post
Most DME is highly fermentable so that may have contributed to a drier taste
?

I think that's the first time I've ever heard anyone describe malt extract as highly fermentable and leading to a dry taste. Sucrose or dextrose yes. Malt extract will give more body and sweetness and is less fermentable than things like the sugars mentioned above and generally - dependent on mash temp etc, less ferementable than the maltose extracted from grain. That's why so many extract brewers have trouble fully attenuating their brews.

@OP - I think you've pretty much figured it out. Different malts, different gravities and different mash temps will give you different results. The addition of the DME will only contribute to the maltiness or thickness.
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:58 AM   #6
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Hmm I suppose I was wrong.

Just goes to show you the dangers of learning things on forums. I might have been in an 'altered' state but I could swear I read somewhere on here someone said that extract was generally more fermentable. I am not one who would pull that kind of statement out of my arse and unfortunatly I took what I read for fact and probably in the wrong context. Shame on me

I havent extract brewed in a while...
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Primary : Honeybuns Weizen, Ode to Arthur(with partial sour)
Secondary:
Bottled: Cream of Three Crops, Hazed and Infused Clone
Planned: A green chile beer, I live in New Mexico gotta have the green chile beer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckfoot View Post
Two days into my last batch made and the scent of the farts of a thousand rhinos is permeating the basement...

Life is good...
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:35 AM   #7
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I reckon you just confused it with dex. No harm done.

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Old 03-26-2010, 06:39 AM   #8
jaobrien6
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Ok. Thanks very much for the replies, they were very helpful. Especially the descriptions of the different malts and how they contributed to the result. Everything does seem to make total sense at this point. For
my next ipa, I think I'll stick with one of those grain bills and alter the temp, as suggested.

FWIW, both beers have been tasty. Quite different from each other, but tasty nonetheless. Thanks all for the feedback and help.

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Old 03-26-2010, 08:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerMan View Post


Hmm I suppose I was wrong.

Just goes to show you the dangers of learning things on forums. I might have been in an 'altered' state but I could swear I read somewhere on here someone said that extract was generally more fermentable. I am not one who would pull that kind of statement out of my arse and unfortunatly I took what I read for fact and probably in the wrong context. Shame on me

I havent extract brewed in a while...
What you probably read was that you get higher points per pound when using DME/LME.
2 row malt might give you 36-38 points, where DME/LME will give you 42-44 points per pound. DME/LME can be more or less fermentables depending on the malting company. Some brands of DME/LME doesn't attenuate very well (unfermentable sugars), while other brands do.
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Old 03-26-2010, 01:55 PM   #10
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Ahh ok got it now. Thanks for the clarification! I might be brewing an extract this weekend so I can fit in my golf game :P

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Primary : Honeybuns Weizen, Ode to Arthur(with partial sour)
Secondary:
Bottled: Cream of Three Crops, Hazed and Infused Clone
Planned: A green chile beer, I live in New Mexico gotta have the green chile beer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckfoot View Post
Two days into my last batch made and the scent of the farts of a thousand rhinos is permeating the basement...

Life is good...
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