The Great Bottle Opener Giveaway

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Need help trying to decipher Hefeweizen flavor.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-05-2011, 10:08 PM   #1
Yambor44
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yambor44's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ocala Florida
Posts: 1,951
Liked 43 Times on 28 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default Need help trying to decipher Hefeweizen flavor.

I brewed 2 beers recently. I will list the recipes with notes below. They both came out with a Hefeweizen flavor (best way I can describe it). I'm not big into that taste, but I have mustered thru one 5 gallon batch and just tapped the other. At first I thought it might have been the new RIMS tube. But the Honey Pal Ale (just what I named it becasue I used some honey malt) was not brewed with the RIMS tube.

Then, I thoght for sure it was the yeast. I reused some washed US-05. However, I also have on tap a Bells 2 Hearted IPA that used the same yeast and it is pretty close to dead on as clone goes with no Hefeweizen aroma or flavor.

What stumped me was that the one I just tapped is supposed to be a SNPA clone and it tastes and smells EXACTLY like a Hefeweizen. Again, thats the only way I know to describe it.

I secondaried the Honay Pale and did not on the SNPA but I did add some gelatin to the keg to try and "calm it down" some to no avail.

As you can see in the notes, I used hot tap water to start on one, but not the other. I know recently I added tap water to the HLT and forgot the campden tablet, maybe it was one of these batches (or both).

I was thinking Chloramines could be the cause but I have forgotten the campden in the past and not had this flavor/aroma.

Does anyone have experience with off flavors due to Chloramines?

SNPA 5 gallon
10-A American Pale Ale
Author: Rob
Date: 1/24/10

Size: 6.0 gal
Efficiency: 79.0%
Attenuation: 80.0%
Calories: 181.85 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.055 (1.045 - 1.060)
Terminal Gravity: 1.011 (1.010 - 1.015)
Color: 12.01 (5.0 - 14.0)
Alcohol: 5.78% (4.5% - 6.2%)
Bitterness: 43.7 (30.0 - 45.0)

Ingredients:
10.0 lb Canadian Craft Brewers Pale Malt
1.0 lb Crystal Malt 60°L
1.0 lb Cara-Pils® Malt
.5 oz Magnum (14.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
.5 oz Perle (8.2%) - added during boil, boiled 45.0 min
.5 oz Cascade (5.4%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
2.0 oz Cascade (5.4%) - added during boil, boiled 5.0 min

Notes
Mash at 156 with 5 gallons of strike water for 60 minutes.
Then add 2 gallons of 185 degree water, stir really well and hold for 10 minutes.
Recirculate until wort runs clear.
Begin transfer and sparge with another 2.5 gallons of water to collect 8 in the BK.
Racked to secondary on 02-06-10.
Tapped 4-5-11
Tastes and smells like a Hefeweizen.

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.15

Gpa's Honay Pale
10-A American Pale Ale
Author: Rob
Date: 1/15/11

Size: 6.0 gal
Efficiency: 81.0%
Attenuation: 73.0%
Calories: 173.25 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.052 (1.045 - 1.060)
Terminal Gravity: 1.014 (1.010 - 1.015)
Color: 6.75 (5.0 - 14.0)
Alcohol: 4.97% (4.5% - 6.2%)
Bitterness: 34.3 (30.0 - 45.0)

Ingredients:
10.0 lb American 2-row
1 lb 2-Row Caramel Malt 10L
.5 lb Honey Malt
2 oz Cascade (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
1.0 oz Cascade (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 5 min



Notes
Loaded all 8.25 gallons of strike water to MT, stirred in well.
Recirculated the entire mash. Only had to fire the burner once. Target temp 152*. For some reason ended up at 158* with 165* strike water. Will go 160 next time.
STIRRED MASH AT THE 30 MINUTE MARK. Continued recirculation, lit burner for the first time.

2ndary cold crashed 1-30-11

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.15

__________________
Yambor44 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 03:09 PM   #2
pjj2ba
Look under the recliner
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
pjj2ba's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: State College, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,427
Liked 192 Times on 158 Posts
Likes Given: 22

Default

Is the beer crystal clear? These are the first few pints from the keg? I find these are always a bit yeasty. I've also noticed that the yeast can taste quite different from one another. I've had some that were quite sweet and fruity, and others that are more bready. If this is the case it will go away shortly

__________________
On Tap: Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), CZ Pils, Maibock,
Kegged and Aging/Lagering:CAP, CAP II, Wheat lager, Imperial Pilsner, Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), OKZ II (for base malt comparison), light beer - yes, light beer, Belgian IPA, IPA,
Secondary:
Primary: Pale Ale
Brewing soon: Saison
Recently kicked : ( IPA, Bock, Saison,
Pilsner Urquell Master Homebrewer
(1st NYC 2011, 2nd NYC 2012)
P U crowns winners in its inaugural master HB competition
pjj2ba is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 03:31 PM   #3
Yambor44
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yambor44's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ocala Florida
Posts: 1,951
Liked 43 Times on 28 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Both beers actually started off and the Honay finished off Crystal clear. The Honay Pale tasted the same all the way thru.

__________________
Yambor44 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 03:40 PM   #4
PVH
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Denver
Posts: 572
Liked 12 Times on 12 Posts

Default

What was your fermentation temp?

Also, can you more specifically describe the hefeweizen flavor and aroma? Do you mean yeasty? Clove/phenolic flavor? Bananas or other very apparent esters?

__________________
PVH is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 04:01 PM   #5
Yambor44
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yambor44's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ocala Florida
Posts: 1,951
Liked 43 Times on 28 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

I have my ambient temps set at 60 on my controller. My actual ambient temps stay 62-64.

As far as flavor goes, I know what its not. I would say not banana and not fruity. Also not yeasty. As far as clove goes, maybe? I just described it as a Hefeweizen as I recently purchased a six pack of Hefes from a small brewery near here. That was the first and only time I have had them. I actually saved one back to compare and mine tasted and smelled exactly like the one I purchased, except more prominent in the flavor and aroma (mine kegged, it was bottled).

That is my only experience with a Hefe so not sure it tasted the way it was supposed to. I just assume so since it came from a small commercial brewery. Very small.

I just looked up phenolic flavor and I would say no on that based on this description: Phenolic (scorched, hospital-like, pharmaceutical, bakelite) ...

How about this maybe under the same description of Phenols:
PHENOLIC

CHARACTERISTICS: A hospital-medicine chest flavor and aroma, best detected by its aroma components; caused by phenols. Some phenolic tastes are desired depending on the style. Other descriptions include Band-Aid-like, plasticlike, smoky, clovelike.

HIGH LEVELS DUE TO PROCESS: Yeast strain; chlorophenols in the water; improper rinse of chlorine sanitizers; oversparging; sparging above pH 6.0; sparging above 170 degrees; wild yeast contamination.

LOW LEVELS DUE TO PROCESS: Charcoal filtering of tap water; good healthy yeast strain; proper sparging while monitoring temperature and pH, good rinse of sanitizers or use of non-chlorine sanitizers.

EXAMPLES: Wheat beers have a high amount of the phenol 4-vinyl guaiacol that gives the characteristic clove taste.

Hmmm....maybe the Chloramine after all?

__________________
Yambor44 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 04:41 PM   #6
PVH
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Denver
Posts: 572
Liked 12 Times on 12 Posts

Default

Well, fermentation doesn't seem to be the culprit. Maybe it is a water problem. I do not have experience with off flavors from Chloramines, but there are some threads on it here. Still, it seems odd you are just now encountering this problem.

__________________
PVH is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 07:38 PM   #7
ReverseApacheMaster
Registered User
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Keller, Texas
Posts: 4,887
Liked 228 Times on 191 Posts

Default

I had chlorine/chloramine problems in my early beers where I was using bleach as a sanitizer and didn't do a good job of rinsing it out. When the phenolic flavors came in, it tasted like a solvent cleaner. If it is just your water, I guess it wouldn't be that bad. I don't know, I have a lot of chlorine in my tap water and I use it for brewing without adding campden and it doesn't turn my beers into hefeweizens.

What bothers me is how you can have three beers, all with high IBUs, taste exactly like a hefeweizen when hefes are very low on hops. I suspect you are misconstruing what you are tasting. Is there a homebrew shop or homebrew group in your area you could convince to taste your beer? They should be able to define the off flavor and what is causing it.

__________________
ReverseApacheMaster is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 07:45 PM   #8
Yambor44
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yambor44's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ocala Florida
Posts: 1,951
Liked 43 Times on 28 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Thanks Apache. To clarify, I had 2 not three (not splitting hairs, just in case that makes a difference) that tastes this way. We have Cloramine and not Chlorine in our water. I know that with Chlorine it can sit and evaporate overnight. Not so with Chloramines. Thats about all I know about the two! :-)

Here's a little something on them:


Chloramines are disinfectants used to treat drinking water. Chloramines are most commonly formed when ammonia is added to chlorine to treat drinking water. The typical purpose of chloramines is to provide longer-lasting water treatment as the water moves through pipes to consumers. This type of disinfection is known as secondary disinfection. Chloramines have been used by water utilities for almost 90 years, and their use is closely regulated. More than one in five Americans uses drinking water treated with chloramines. Water that contains chloramines and meets EPA regulatory standards is safe to use for drinking, cooking, bathing and other household uses.

Also, on the off chance anyone else wants some info on them, here is a PDF sheet with some questions and answers regarding Chloramine.

http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/disinfectio...fs/all29_q.pdf

__________________
Yambor44 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 07:55 PM   #9
Yambor44
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yambor44's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ocala Florida
Posts: 1,951
Liked 43 Times on 28 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Also, I forgot to mention I had a fellow brewer come over and he also thought it tasted and smelled exactly like a Hefe. Sorry I cannot be more specific.

__________________
Yambor44 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-07-2011, 05:52 PM   #10
Yambor44
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yambor44's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ocala Florida
Posts: 1,951
Liked 43 Times on 28 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PVH View Post
What was your fermentation temp?

Also, can you more specifically describe the hefeweizen flavor and aroma? Do you mean yeasty? Clove/phenolic flavor? Bananas or other very apparent esters?
Looks like it could be the Phenol effect. What do you think?

Phenolic flavors and aromas in beer are most often described as clovey, spicey, smokey, band-aid-like, or medicinal flavors and aromas. Except in a few beer styles where some of these flavors are considered appropriate, these compounds are for the most part considered a flaw. The most common source of the clove-like and spicey aromas in beer are the classic German hefeweizen-style yeasts. These yeasts convert ferrulic acid from malt into a compound which smells just like cloves, 4-vinyl guaiacol. The reason most hefeweizen and other German wheat based beers display so much clovey phenolics is because wheat contains more ferrulic acid than barley.

Before attributing the medicinal flavors to wild yeast, you should be aware of the effect that chlorine has on beer. When you brew with highly chlorinated water, the chlorine reacts with naturally occurring phenols in the beer to form chlorophenols. This is a common flaw in home brewed beer and is easy to remedy by filtering with activated carbon or using either bottled water or Reverse Osmosis (RO) water.
__________________
Yambor44 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Low OG on first Hefeweizen, what now? upstream All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 7 04-06-2010 10:27 PM
Hefeweizen Color redbone All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 2 03-10-2010 02:35 PM
Help with hefeweizen please noisy123 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 19 08-05-2008 12:18 PM
2nd AG, Hefeweizen thedaler All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 3 04-25-2007 09:21 PM
Hefeweizen billism All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 11 03-02-2006 06:25 AM