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Old 12-08-2008, 06:02 PM   #41
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It's not called hot break but rather mashout. However, you don't need to mashout if you're batch sparging. Skip that 2qt addition before the sparge. At the end of the mash, drain the tun. In this brew that would have left 3 gal, and 2.5 gal respectively to sparge with. You're in a good spot with the sparge temps of about 180F but did you by chance measure the temp of the grainbed after you stirred the sparge in?

I suspect skipping that 2 qt mashout addition will give you a couple extra points of efficiency but you're missing it by a lot. I have to wonder about the crush. Take a picture of it next time.

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Old 12-08-2008, 06:14 PM   #42
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At the end of the mash time, I didn't actually add 2qts of hot H20. It came from the Vorlauf, which I simply poured back on top of the grain bed.

No, I didn't remember to measure the temp of the grain bed after adding sparge water. Theoretically, it should be close to 170, right?

I'll try to get a pic up later

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Old 12-08-2008, 11:19 PM   #43
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Here's the pic link
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/gallery/...08-08_1105.jpg

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Old 12-09-2008, 10:05 AM   #44
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Default thick mash/coarse grind sometimes desirable low efficiency

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Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post

That was the driving point behind the two articles that I wrote about efficiency: to raise awareness that there are 2 major processes at work. Which are both mostly independent and which can even be measured as that.

One of the problems is that many use an old style mashing technique and expect modern day brewhouse efficiencies. Don’t get me wrong there is nothing bad about using old techniques. But single infusion mashing with about 1.25 qt/lb and a coarsely milled grist w/ batch sparging was never expected to produce efficiencies in the 90s. It’s what old Britsh ale breweries have used and some of them probably still use. To get into the 90s you need to use more modern techniques, which may not be the right choice for a traditional English ale but work for most modern beers. And that is a more tightly milled girst and/or more intense mashing (e.g. agitated mash) to allow better access to the stach. I’m also convinced that a thinner mash (1.5-2 qts/lb) does better. Recently I read that high sugar concentrations can raise the gelatinization temp of starch, i.e. make it harder for the mash to convert the last bit of starch.

Kai
I am a beginner at this brewing, based in UK, and trying to make sense of so much. I do know a little bit about barley as my husband grow 400 acres of Maris Otter and what you say there about the traditional route for English efficiencies corresponds to what I got taught when I went on a microbrewery installation course (I'm converting our dairy for friends to play at brewing in hopefully one day with our own barley).

Anyway I got taught that for traditional UK bitters, IPAs and porters micros don't worry so much about the efficiency as high efficiencies can come from fermentable extracts that you dont want in the flavour for traditional ales (perhaps not the case in modern US ales).

Milling depends on size of grain but traditional 'cracked' not 'crushed', then mashing 'hot and thick', all these things reduce efficiencies down to 60-70% but leave the fermentable extract that you don't want behind.

So far I have always gone coarse grind and 'Hot and thick', usually 2.7kg grain:1 Litre water at 67C and 77C sparge.
I dont really understand yet just trying to stick to the Coarse grain/Hot and Thick Mantra for now til I understand better.

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Old 12-09-2008, 03:56 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimothyTaylorslLandlady View Post
I am a beginner at this brewing, based in UK, and trying to make sense of so much. I do know a little bit about barley as my husband grow 400 acres of Maris Otter and what you say there about the traditional route for English efficiencies corresponds to what I got taught when I went on a microbrewery installation course


Nice to hear that I’m on the right track with this. Initially I thought that one always wants to convert all the starches (i.e. 100% conversion efficiency) based the mostly German background of my brewing. But then I learned about the English mashes and that they may not get to that point b/c of the coarser crush and mash thickness.

Quote:
Anyway I got taught that for traditional UK bitters, IPAs and porters micros don't worry so much about the efficiency as high efficiencies can come from fermentable extracts that you dont want in the flavour for traditional ales (perhaps not the case in modern US ales).
That is interesting. But I think that additional extract doesn’t have to come from higher fermentables as long ad the initial heat (I think that’s what they call the starting temp in the UK, at least Briggs, a British author calls it that) of the mash is hot enough.

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So far I have always gone coarse grind and 'Hot and thick', usually 2.7kg grain:1 Litre water at 67C and 77C sparge.
Are you sure? 1 liter water to 2.7 kg of grain is about 0.37 l/kg or 0.17 qt/lb. This wouldn’t cover the grains at all and I think that you will need more water than that to gelatinize and convert the starches. Maybe you meant 2.7l to 1 kg of grain (i.e. 1.27 qt/lb)

Quote:
I dont really understand yet just trying to stick to the Coarse grain/Hot and Thick Mantra for now til I understand better.
That seems to be traditional and the best for the styles of beer you are brewing.


Kai

Last edited by Kaiser; 12-09-2008 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:30 PM   #46
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Default sorry yes, I mean the other way round 2.7L:1kg

yes,

silly mistake I meant 2.7 Litres of water to 1Kg of grain.

the other way would be very very thick!!

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Old 01-18-2009, 12:52 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by FlyGuy View Post
• Also when batch sparging, it is critical that you stir the mash fully after adding mash-out water and/or the first sparge water addition. It may help to stir before each subsequent sparge water addition, but that depends on your system.
I would only stir a few inches deep in order to avoid disturbing the grain bed which has sealed up and allowed the running to clear. If you disturb the grainbed, you will have to let the running clear again by cycling.
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Old 01-18-2009, 02:30 AM   #48
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyGuy
• Also when batch sparging, it is critical that you stir the mash fully after adding mash-out water and/or the first sparge water addition. It may help to stir before each subsequent sparge water addition, but that depends on your system.
I would only stir a few inches deep in order to avoid disturbing the grain bed which has sealed up and allowed the running to clear. If you disturb the grainbed, you will have to let the running clear again by cycling.
My procedure is this and I have done 40 plus this way with no problems:

Add my first water addition (mash out if you will) and stir deep and fully. Then vorlauf one to two quarts until clear and drain.

Add my second addition and stir deep and fully. Then vorlauf one to two quarts until clear and drain.

No shallow stirring here. The grain bed settles quite well without waiting after the stir but immediately start my vorlauf.
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Old 01-18-2009, 05:01 PM   #49
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My process and results are like Jerry's.

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Old 01-18-2009, 05:09 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by impatient View Post
I would only stir a few inches deep in order to avoid disturbing the grain bed which has sealed up and allowed the running to clear. If you disturb the grainbed, you will have to let the running clear again by cycling.
If you want to save a small bit of time, this would be true. However, this thread is about maximizing your efficiency, in which case it is a good idea to stir your mash after adding new sparge water (stirring and vorlaufing only takes me a couple of minutes, so it is worth it IMO).
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