The Great Bottle Opener Giveaway

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Maximizing Efficiency when Batch Sparging

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-02-2008, 04:45 AM   #21
Kaiser
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Kaiser's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pepperell, MA
Posts: 3,904
Liked 114 Times on 71 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Even in batch sparging you may need to restrict the flow in order to prevent a stuck sparge. If the "natural" flow rate is to slow b/c of poor husk quality and/or lots of flour the grain bed can still set itself if to fast of a flow is forced. I used to be able to let it "rip", but that was when I bought the grain crushed and got only 75% efficiency. Now I mill finer but need to watch the flow rate.

You'll have to find the sweet spot yourself.

WRT to boil rate, keep it between 8 and 15% per hour. To much can actually hurt the beer as the thermal loading on the wort gets to high.

Kai

Kaiser is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-02-2008, 05:29 AM   #22
Ike
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Urbana, Illinois
Posts: 42
Default

ich bin fuer den Rat allerdings sehr bedanklich, Herr "Kai". Ich habe Ihre Threads in den letzten Wochen schon ziemlich hilfreich gefunden!

Rock on like a Skorpion

__________________
Primary: Mojave Red, Dry Irish Stout
Secondary: Rogue's Blackened Brutal Bitter Clone, IPA
On the burner: lots
Ike is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-02-2008, 01:54 PM   #23
Kaiser
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Kaiser's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pepperell, MA
Posts: 3,904
Liked 114 Times on 71 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ike View Post
ich bin fuer den Rat allerdings sehr bedanklich, Herr "Kai". Ich habe Ihre Threads in den letzten Wochen schon ziemlich hilfreich gefunden!
Bitte Schoen

Kai
Kaiser is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2008, 05:33 PM   #24
Denny
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eugene OR
Posts: 4,205
Liked 412 Times on 313 Posts
Likes Given: 466

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ike View Post
So, if I get this right, it's better to have a quicker run-off than what I did?
Also, my run-off was between 6.5-7 gallons, but a LOT seemed to boil off, as I only ended up with about 4 gal in the carboy! Tasted great though. Would it be advantageous to do a third running and just boil it down in two kettles until it all fits into the main one (I have an 8 and a 4 gal)?

My grind was whatever MoreBeer had set when I cruised by last month. Not sure what it was. (as an aside, I LOVE going in there...like a candy store. The wife won't go with me again...)

I'll read a little more up on my Charlie before brewing the next one this weekend (an all-grain Porter kit from MoreBeer).
A faster runoff is not necessarily better, but possible. And don't read Charlie to get info on batch sparging! I start my runoff slowly until the grain bed is set (a minute or 2) then open it up and let it rip. See dennybrew for details. The MoreBeer crush is likely the source of your low efficiency.
__________________

Life begins at 60....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

http://www.experimentalbrew.com - the website for the book "Experimental Homebrewing"...coming Nov. 2014

Denny is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2008, 05:34 PM   #25
Denny
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eugene OR
Posts: 4,205
Liked 412 Times on 313 Posts
Likes Given: 466

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
Even in batch sparging you may need to restrict the flow in order to prevent a stuck sparge. If the "natural" flow rate is to slow b/c of poor husk quality and/or lots of flour the grain bed can still set itself if to fast of a flow is forced. I used to be able to let it "rip", but that was when I bought the grain crushed and got only 75% efficiency. Now I mill finer but need to watch the flow rate.

You'll have to find the sweet spot yourself.

WRT to boil rate, keep it between 8 and 15% per hour. To much can actually hurt the beer as the thermal loading on the wort gets to high.

Kai
We've likley discussed this before, but what type of lautering system do you use? I crush VERY fine, but have never had a stuck runoff using hose braid.
__________________

Life begins at 60....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

http://www.experimentalbrew.com - the website for the book "Experimental Homebrewing"...coming Nov. 2014

Denny is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2008, 05:59 PM   #26
radtek
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: /texas/san_antonio
Posts: 158
Default

HaHa it's funny to see Denny as a "junior" when he is anything but!

I tried retarding the flow in my last batch and it seemed like my first run-off was a little more steady and somewhat shorter. I usually just set the grain-bed and let it rip as per Denny. The second run I opened it up and it actually slowed down some, which is unusual for a second run IME. Normally, it goes a little quicker and easier than the first run.

I might experiment with it a little more but I have a brand new tun to play with, and I haven't done an initial gravity read for the last several batches. Once I get it dialed in I don't worry much about working the efficiency if I get consistent results. I'll see how this new tun does on Friday.

I think getting the mash temp up to around 168F is critical for maximizing the efficiency when sparging- especially when going to a fine grist.

I've been wondering where the fine line is when trying to eke out the last percentage points. In addition to those valuable sugars I suspect that over-sparging can have a negative effect on the flavor of the wort. Maybe an unacceptable level of graininess or astringency? Or possibly a muddying up of the flavors? WAG since I don't think I've ever reached that point.

__________________
radtek is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2008, 12:03 AM   #27
Ike
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Urbana, Illinois
Posts: 42
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
A faster runoff is not necessarily better, but possible. And don't read Charlie to get info on batch sparging! I start my runoff slowly until the grain bed is set (a minute or 2) then open it up and let it rip. See dennybrew for details. The MoreBeer crush is likely the source of your low efficiency.
Thanks for your link Denny. I think I'll try sparging a little quicker this weekend with my first AG porter and perhaps add a little more sparge H2O as well. Though, according to your example on your site (10pd grain, 7gal pre boil wort), I wasn't too far below my target volume.
My MLT, btw, is the Home Depot "special" described in the Brew Wiki. -5 gal circular cooler w/ steel braid.
__________________
Primary: Mojave Red, Dry Irish Stout
Secondary: Rogue's Blackened Brutal Bitter Clone, IPA
On the burner: lots
Ike is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2008, 04:56 PM   #28
gallagherman
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 225
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Is it more important to have a slower lauter rate for fly sparging?

__________________

Next: Dead Guy Clone, Weißbier

Fermenting: The Riley

Kegged: Dry Stout, RyePA

My Blog! www.beerunion.net

gallagherman is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2008, 05:05 PM   #29
FlyGuy
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
FlyGuy's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 3,618
Liked 126 Times on 40 Posts
Likes Given: 7

Default

Yes, definitely. In fly sparging, you are using fresh, hot water to gently 'rinse' the sugars out of the grainbed. If you drain too quickly, the water passes over the grain without having the chance to fully dissolve any remaining sugars.

In batch sparging, we aren't rinsing. You just add your batch of sparge water, stir it up to get the sugars in solution, then drain it off. Assuming you don't get a stuck sparge, draining it slow removes just as much sugar as draining it fast.

__________________
Cheap 10 gal cooler MLT$3 AutosiphonAluminum Pot FAQEasy Steam Injection Mash SystemMake a Frozen Yeast Bank
Improving Stovetop Boiling Improving AG Efficiency
FlyGuy is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2008, 05:09 PM   #30
Kaiser
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Kaiser's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pepperell, MA
Posts: 3,904
Liked 114 Times on 71 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
We've likley discussed this before, but what type of lautering system do you use? I crush VERY fine, but have never had a stuck runoff using hose braid.


I ‘m using a cooler with a copper manifold that has slots and holes:



I’m generally crushing with a mill set to 0.65 mm (26 mil) and I have gone as low as 0.55 mm (22 mil). But I backed off as 26 mil already allows me to convert all starches in the mash. But I can’t open the valve fully w/o getting a serious reduction in flow rate even with the malt conditioning that I do to preserve more of the husks.

My last 2 beers have been wheat beers, so they were naturally slow running anyway. I’d have to check my notes on the lauter times I get with all barley beers.

b/c I’m usually doing other tasks/chores in parallel, I’m not to worried about a slow lauter but I have been wondering myself why you seem to be getting much faster run-off. Maybe it’s the braid, which has much more small holes, than my manifold, which has less but larger holes. Holes, that might be big enough for grain bits to get stuck in them.

radtek,

I caution you to increase your efficiency by more sparging. In my believe the most common cause for low efficiency is low conversion efficiency. I.e. only a part of the starch in the mash is actually converted. The rest is still tucked away in the grits. This is the part of the efficiency that changes when you change your crush. And you should not compensate for that by trying to rinse out more sugars by using more water as the retrieved wort quality declines with lower gravity run-offs. Instead you should fix your conversion efficiency (finer crush, more optimal pH, thinner mash, longer mash time). This will allow you to start lautering with a higher gravity wort as more sugars are now dissolved in your mash and the gravity of the runnings will not drop as low as they would for a low conversion efficiency for the same amount of sugars collected in the kettle.

Here is an example. You can get 70% efficiency by allowing all starch to be converted and lauter with 70% efficiency. For batch sparging this is no-sparge efficiency for average beers. And no-sparge is known to produce a high quality wort. Or you may convert only ¾ of the starches in the mash (75% conversion efficiency). But now you need to lauter much more efficiently to get 93% of the converted sugars out of the MLT into the kettle. To get this good of a lauter efficiency you need to fly sparge or use multiple batch sparges and in both cases you may need more water. This could lead to oversparging and lower quality wort.

I have written this before, but I wanted to bring this up again as 70% for one brewer may not result in the same quality wort as it does for another brewer. Especially since Jamil has been saying that 70% is about perfect for him.

Kai
__________________
BrauKaiser.com - brewing science blog - Twitter - water and mash chemistry calculator
Kaiser is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Two types of batch sparging and efficiency. chase All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 4 06-21-2009 01:26 PM
What % Efficiency do you get batch sparging RobertHSmith All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 22 12-29-2008 06:27 PM
Batch Sparging EamusCatuli All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 5 06-21-2008 08:46 PM
Fly Sparging Vs. Batch Sparging New2HomeBrew All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 28 08-08-2007 05:25 PM
Batch sparging efficiency david_42 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 6 04-08-2007 12:40 PM