Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Maximizing Efficiency when Batch Sparging

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-10-2013, 10:41 PM   #241
MalFet
/bɪər nərd/
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
MalFet's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NYC / Kathmandu
Posts: 8,180
Liked 1218 Times on 806 Posts
Likes Given: 555

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromebrew View Post
I have skimmed over this thread looking for clarification on the following but didn't find it, apologies in advance if i missed it:

When batch sparging, i understand it is preferable to leave the grain bed in tact, but it seems to me that stirring and just adding an extra vorlauf cycle would increase my already lousy efficiency. Is this accurate? I saw one guy on brewing TV talk about skipping vorlauf all together because it doesn't really impact the end result. I agree that it falls out in trub anyway.

I guess my question is, if you aren't worried about vorlaufing, would it increase my efficiency to stir the whole mash in batch sparges? (I'm sparging at 170 degrees)
You definitely can stir your sparge water in a batch sparge setup. In fact, I think you should, and I didn't realize there were people recommending not to. The vorlauf will reset the bed.

I'm suspect you'd be fine if you skipped the vorlauf, though it's a pretty easy thing to do so I don't know what you'd gain by skipping it.
__________________

"Be excellent to each other." -Benjamin Franklin

MalFet is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2013, 10:53 PM   #242
Chromebrew
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 148
Liked 9 Times on 8 Posts
Likes Given: 14

Default

Thanks for the reply! I guess when you read brewing forums as much as i do you begin to get conflicting info. My issue with vorlauf is that it seems to be superfluous (for me) and I am constantly trying streamline my brew process. I've read plenty of conflicting threads on that as well. Thanks again.

__________________
Chromebrew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2013, 11:01 PM   #243
MalFet
/bɪər nərd/
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
MalFet's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NYC / Kathmandu
Posts: 8,180
Liked 1218 Times on 806 Posts
Likes Given: 555

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromebrew
Thanks for the reply! I guess when you read brewing forums as much as i do you begin to get conflicting info. My issue with vorlauf is that it seems to be superfluous (for me) and I am constantly trying streamline my brew process. I've read plenty of conflicting threads on that as well. Thanks again.
Glad it was helpful.

I don't love the idea of boiling a bunch of husk material, which is why I'd probably stick with the vorlauf, but I suspect it's not a huge deal either way.
__________________

"Be excellent to each other." -Benjamin Franklin

MalFet is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-11-2013, 03:06 PM   #244
Denny
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eugene OR
Posts: 4,242
Liked 420 Times on 320 Posts
Likes Given: 502

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromebrew View Post
I have skimmed over this thread looking for clarification on the following but didn't find it, apologies in advance if i missed it:

When batch sparging, i understand it is preferable to leave the grain bed in tact, but it seems to me that stirring and just adding an extra vorlauf cycle would increase my already lousy efficiency. Is this accurate? I saw one guy on brewing TV talk about skipping vorlauf all together because it doesn't really impact the end result. I agree that it falls out in trub anyway.

I guess my question is, if you aren't worried about vorlaufing, would it increase my efficiency to stir the whole mash in batch sparges? (I'm sparging at 170 degrees)
Yes, you very much need to stir in the sparge water.
__________________

Life begins at 60....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

http://www.experimentalbrew.com - the website for the book "Experimental Homebrewing"...coming Nov. 2014

Denny is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-11-2013, 03:55 PM   #245
Viejo
Rebrewer
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 37
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalFet View Post
You'll bite? I didn't realize I was fishing.

The short answer is that you've got to figure out the total extracted sugars in your grains and then divide that by your total strike water. If you've got, for example, ten pounds of two-row at 35 points per pound per gallon and you strike with 6 gallons, you'd expect your first runnings to be (10 * 35 ppg / 6 gallons = 58 points, or 1.058). If you're significantly below that, you've got conversion problems.

Kaiser's got a comprehensive worksheet at his website: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficien cy

As for the other stuff, it depends. The water to grist ratio shouldn't effect your conversion, but if there's more grain it will absorb more water, which means you're leaving sugars behind. Big beers tend to have lower efficiency on most systems. Some report that sparge temperature matters, though I'm skeptical. At the very least, I often sparge with cold water and notice no effects.
When I was first trying to sort out the efficiency issues a few months ago, I created a little spreadsheet that shows me what the actual extraction rate would be for each type of grain based on its potential, rather than simply using averages. If I can develop a predictable efficiency rate for my system, I should be able to use this tool to predict how much of each type of grain I need to create the OG I want.

Thanks for Kai's link. I've skimmed through it, and I can see that I've already done a lot of his suggestions, eg, calibrating water volumes, normalizing temperatures to 68 F when taking measurements, etc. I will study it more closely as I have time.

Really appreciate all the input. Good discussion for many of us; I hope all you veterans don't find it tiresome. I'm learning a lot!
__________________
Viejo is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2013, 12:56 AM   #246
StMarcos
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sebastopol, CA
Posts: 947
Liked 29 Times on 24 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalFet View Post
You'll bite? I didn't realize I was fishing.

The short answer is that you've got to figure out the total extracted sugars in your grains and then divide that by your total strike water. If you've got, for example, ten pounds of two-row at 35 points per pound per gallon and you strike with 6 gallons, you'd expect your first runnings to be (10 * 35 ppg / 6 gallons = 58 points, or 1.058). If you're significantly below that, you've got conversion problems.

Kaiser's got a comprehensive worksheet at his website: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficien cy

As for the other stuff, it depends. The water to grist ratio shouldn't effect your conversion, but if there's more grain it will absorb more water, which means you're leaving sugars behind. Big beers tend to have lower efficiency on most systems. Some report that sparge temperature matters, though I'm skeptical. At the very least, I often sparge with cold water and notice no effects.
Are you sure you are using the ppg method correctly? Something seems off here. For instance, I recently mashed

50lbs/22.7kg of malt that is 37ppg/80%DBFG in

16gal/60.8L water

By your method, I should be getting

50*37/16 = 116 points, or 1.116 gravity.

With kaiser's method, (or just using his chart), I see that at

60.8/22.7 = 2.7L/kg

I should be getting 1.093 gravity. 1.093 gravity is what I actually get.
__________________
StMarcos is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2013, 01:08 AM   #247
MalFet
/bɪər nərd/
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
MalFet's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NYC / Kathmandu
Posts: 8,180
Liked 1218 Times on 806 Posts
Likes Given: 555

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StMarcos View Post
Are you sure you are using the ppg method correctly? Something seems off here. For instance, I recently mashed

50lbs/22.7kg of malt that is 37ppg/80%DBFG in

16gal/60.8L water

By your method, I should be getting

50*37/16 = 116 points, or 1.116 gravity.

With kaiser's method, (or just using his chart), I see that at

60.8/22.7 = 2.7L/kg

I should be getting 1.093 gravity. 1.093 gravity is what I actually get.
Oops, you're right. I didn't account for the volume increase resulting from the sugar addition. Good catch.
__________________

"Be excellent to each other." -Benjamin Franklin

MalFet is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2013, 01:15 AM   #248
afr0byte
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,398
Liked 69 Times on 58 Posts
Likes Given: 48

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StMarcos View Post
Are you sure you are using the ppg method correctly? Something seems off here. For instance, I recently mashed

50lbs/22.7kg of malt that is 37ppg/80%DBFG in

16gal/60.8L water

By your method, I should be getting

50*37/16 = 116 points, or 1.116 gravity.

With kaiser's method, (or just using his chart), I see that at

60.8/22.7 = 2.7L/kg

I should be getting 1.093 gravity. 1.093 gravity is what I actually get.
Hmmm? I assume you get about 80% efficiency? 116*.8 = 92.8

EDIT: N/m you're talking about first runnings.
__________________
afr0byte is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2013, 02:07 AM   #249
StMarcos
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sebastopol, CA
Posts: 947
Liked 29 Times on 24 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Yup first runnings - checking the conversion eff. I actually didn't even do a boil - froze the 20gal batch (2x 10gal. runnings) for use in making starters!

__________________
StMarcos is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-20-2013, 01:47 PM   #250
eventsatoms
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post

Here is some info on what factors affect the lauter efficiency part of the brewhouse efficiency when batch sparging.

Kai
My God. I felt like i was in the matrix and all this knowledge was dropped on me. Thanks man!
__________________
eventsatoms is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Two types of batch sparging and efficiency. chase All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 4 06-21-2009 01:26 PM
What % Efficiency do you get batch sparging RobertHSmith All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 22 12-29-2008 06:27 PM
Batch Sparging EamusCatuli All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 5 06-21-2008 08:46 PM
Fly Sparging Vs. Batch Sparging New2HomeBrew All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 28 08-08-2007 05:25 PM
Batch sparging efficiency david_42 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 6 04-08-2007 12:40 PM