Mashout

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peter78

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Besides getting a little more wort by increasing the mash temperature to around 165*, is there any other benefit to do that? I've read that people do it to stop enzyme activity. What's the point of it?
 
With my BIAB set up I never bother doing it, but if I recall correctly, it'll make it easier to rinse sugars out of the grain, thus increasing mash efficiency.
 
A mashout stops enzyme activity to lockin your sugar profile (dry/meduim/full body, etc.), and makes the remaining sugars that are still attached to the malt more fluid. John Palmer compares a mashout to soaking honey in hot water to make it flow better.

So for the sake of BIAB, it'll typically bump your efficiency up 2-3%, because it causes more of the sugar that wasn't converted during the mash to separate from the grain when you pull the bag and drain it to end up in your wort.

For traditional AG brewers, a mashout does the same thing, you just do it before you sparge or just heat the sparge water to higher temps to allow it to literally rinse those sugars out of the grainbed and into the wort.
 
Besides getting a little more wort by increasing the mash temperature to around 165*, is there any other benefit to do that? I've read that people do it to stop enzyme activity. What's the point of it?

You do not get more wort out by increasing the temp. Kai Troester's cold sparging experiments have proven that. 165 is not hot enough for a true mashout. You need to hit 170 and hold it for 20 min. or more to denature the enzymes.
 
That's surprising that more sugar doesn't come out with the temperature increase. I certainly see a difference when stirring the mash from 150 to 170. Do you have a link to that proof? Kai does some good work.
 
One thing I've not understood is this... is it necessary to mashout at the grain bed, or is the same thing achieved after collecting.
For example (especially with BIAB), it's kind of hard to get the grains up in temperature evenly. It would be easier to do the normal mash/squeeze routine, then pull the grains and elevate the temp to stop any enzymes.
(sorry to hijack, but relevant).
 
I certainly get a 2-3% bump in efficiency when I do a mashout vs. when I do not. I though mashouts were a waste of time before I experimented on about a 1/2 dozen batches and came to that conclusion.

How would Kai Troester's experiments explain that?
 
For example (especially with BIAB), it's kind of hard to get the grains up in temperature evenly.

I stir like crazy during the ramp up to 170F during the mashout, and find it quite easy to get uniform temps throughout the grain.

It would be easier to do the normal mash/squeeze routine, then pull the grains and elevate the temp to stop any enzymes.

The enzymes come from the malted grain, and are working on the starches left in the malted grain. The enzymes don't work on the sugars in the wort, that's the product they've already created from the starches in the grain. The mashout is only for the benefit of the enzymes still working on the starches left in the grain to determine what happens to them (monosaccarides or bisaccarides) during the bag being pulled/squeezed or during a sparge.

Do those big words make me sound more authoritarian? :)
 
Interested about mashout too. I do mash out for 10 minutes at 77-78C (around 170F) is this not enough them?
 
I remember hearing somewhere it is necessary for breweries to do because it can take a long time from the time they are done mashing to the time they start the boil just because they are moving such a vast amount of wort. With that lag time it can change their gravity or fermentability. For us draining five gallons from a mashtun and then starting the boil doesn't take nearly long enough for any real changes to happen.
 
That's surprising that more sugar doesn't come out with the temperature increase. I certainly see a difference when stirring the mash from 150 to 170. Do you have a link to that proof? Kai does some good work.

Don't have the link at hand, but I'll look for it. What you are likely seeing when you raise the mash to 170 is the final bits of conversion taking place. If your conversion efficiency is at or near 100% before raising the temp you will see little to no difference. It has nothing to do with changing the viscosity of the wort.
 
One thing I've not understood is this... is it necessary to mashout at the grain bed, or is the same thing achieved after collecting.
For example (especially with BIAB), it's kind of hard to get the grains up in temperature evenly. It would be easier to do the normal mash/squeeze routine, then pull the grains and elevate the temp to stop any enzymes.
(sorry to hijack, but relevant).

The purpose of a mashout is to denature enzymes and fix the fermentability of the wort. Since you get to boiling so much more quickly with BIAB or batch sparging than you do with fly sparging, a mashout is not necessary.
 
I certainly get a 2-3% bump in efficiency when I do a mashout vs. when I do not. I though mashouts were a waste of time before I experimented on about a 1/2 dozen batches and came to that conclusion.

How would Kai Troester's experiments explain that?

What you're experiencing is increased conversion, not reduced viscosity.
 
What you're experiencing is increased conversion, not reduced viscosity.

With modern malted grains, conversion is effectively complete like 15 minutes into the mash. Why would heating up the wort/grain 45-50 minutes later re-start any conversion?

I think this is debated enough to just say "decide yourself." A google search shows plenty of experts on both side of the fence.
 
Nope, but I've seen plenty of modern experiments that conclude that if my temps and mash PH were spot on and consistent for 15 minutes, I certainly could.

Eric Watson on the Brewing Network has an episode where he proves this with the iodine test. He even concluded that he hit his target OG after just 5 minutes of mashing. Check out that episode!
 
Nope, but I've seen plenty of modern experiments that conclude that if my temps and mash PH were spot on and consistent for 15 minutes, I certainly could.

Eric Watson on the Brewing Network has an episode where he proves this with the iodine test. He even concluded that he hit his target OG after just 5 minutes of mashing. Check out that episode!

Rather than an iodine test, try this...

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph..._Efficiency#Determining_Conversion_Efficiency
 
Nope, but I've seen plenty of modern experiments that conclude that if my temps and mash PH were spot on and consistent for 15 minutes, I certainly could.

Eric Watson on the Brewing Network has an episode where he proves this with the iodine test. He even concluded that he hit his target OG after just 5 minutes of mashing. Check out that episode!

So... who mashes for 15 minutes based on this "study" and what is your efficiency?

I don't mashout because it isn't worth it for time and grain considerations.
 
Unless I'm missing something, it seems like what it comes down to is semantics. I guess what I'd like to know is what is the difference between a single batch sparge and "mashout"? According to my brewing software, I heat my sparge water to about 190˚F which, when added to my mash tun after draining the first runnings brings the grain bed up to about 165˚-169˚. I have have nothing but absolute success with this method.
 
The enzymes come from the malted grain, and are working on the starches left in the malted grain. The enzymes don't work on the sugars in the wort, that's the product they've already created from the starches in the grain. The mashout is only for the benefit of the enzymes still working on the starches left in the grain
Exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks!
 
That's almost 100% true, but beta enzymes actually work on the shorter starch chains produced by the alphas, and the larger sugars produced by the alphas.
 
Unless I'm missing something, it seems like what it comes down to is semantics. I guess what I'd like to know is what is the difference between a single batch sparge and "mashout"? According to my brewing software, I heat my sparge water to about 190˚F which, when added to my mash tun after draining the first runnings brings the grain bed up to about 165˚-169˚. I have have nothing but absolute success with this method.

Whike I have no doubt you get good results, can you define "success"? Is it that you denature the enzymes and fix fermentability? That's what a mashout is supposed to do. But if you define "success" as hitting your OG, then you are seeing other benefits from raising the temp. As do I. I find my conversion efficiency increases by increasing the temp at the end of the mash. That's because the last bits of conversion happen. Contrary to what some seem to think, full conversion does not happen in 15 min. That theory came about becasue some commercial breweries do a short mash rest. But they also are basically at conversion temps for an hour or more while they sparge. So, although the mash rest itself may only be 15 min., the total conversion time is much longer.
 
Whike I have no doubt you get good results, can you define "success"? Is it that you denature the enzymes and fix fermentability? That's what a mashout is supposed to do. But if you define "success" as hitting your OG, then you are seeing other benefits from raising the temp. As do I. I find my conversion efficiency increases by increasing the temp at the end of the mash. That's because the last bits of conversion happen. Contrary to what some seem to think, full conversion does not happen in 15 min. That theory came about becasue some commercial breweries do a short mash rest. But they also are basically at conversion temps for an hour or more while they sparge. So, although the mash rest itself may only be 15 min., the total conversion time is much longer.

"Success" by my measure is hitting my gravity points, achieving no less than 70% eff., and generally making very good beer. I have been pleased with my brewing results over the last few years and I therefore don't try to fix things that aren't broke.
 
"Success" by my measure is hitting my gravity points, achieving no less than 70% eff., and generally making very good beer. I have been pleased with my brewing results over the last few years and I therefore don't try to fix things that aren't broke.

That's what I assumed you meant. I just wanted to be sure that you weren't referring to a true mashout.
 
We've been collecting data at a BIAB site on this very subject; so far it appears that gravity readings are 4-6 points higher at the end of a 10 minute mashout vs at the end of the 60-90 minute mash. I'll keep doing the mashout, thank you. ;)
 
That's what I assumed you meant. I just wanted to be sure that you weren't referring to a true mashout.

Yup, we're on the same page. Brewing is a hobby to me. I think when I first got really into it, I got caught up in a lot of the science and technical things related to mash, enzymes, conversion, pH, etc. When I finally said f*ck it and just brewed for pure enjoyment, that's when I started making some truly great beer.
 
Yup, we're on the same page. Brewing is a hobby to me. I think when I first got really into it, I got caught up in a lot of the science and technical things related to mash, enzymes, conversion, pH, etc. When I finally said f*ck it and just brewed for pure enjoyment, that's when I started making some truly great beer.

Personlly, I find paying attention to the science helps me make better beer, which in turn increases my enjoyment of the hobby. But as the AHA used to say "It's not rocket science unless you want it to be".
 
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