Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Mash Temperature Experiment
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-15-2014, 02:03 PM   #21
stickyfinger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: , NY
Posts: 66
Liked 4 Times on 2 Posts

Default

I'm personally most interested in one or two questions.

1 - Can i make a beer considerably thinner or richer tasting by varying mash temp

2 - What is the temp of maximum fermentability for a given brewing setup - ie. herms, etc

__________________
stickyfinger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-15-2014, 02:11 PM   #22
SpeedYellow
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,163
Liked 119 Times on 101 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default Mash Temperature Experiment

Quote:
Originally Posted by stickyfinger View Post
2 - What is the temp of maximum fermentability for a given brewing setup - ie. herms, etc
For maximum fermentability, you probably need more than just one temp. Just an educated guess here, but the Hochkurz method (146-148F followed by 160-162F) would likely maximize fermentability since those temps are selected to maximize activity of beta and alpha amylase enzymes.
__________________
SpeedYellow is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-15-2014, 02:34 PM   #23
stickyfinger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: , NY
Posts: 66
Liked 4 Times on 2 Posts

Default

How does that increase fermentability? beta works better at lower and alpha at higher. This seems like it would maximize sugar production but decrease fermentability?

I would think maximum fermentability would be a quick high temp rest followed by a drop in temp for an extended period. That's what has worked for me in the past. I'd mash in at say, 152 and then the cooler would cool off over the next couple hours of mashing/sparging.

I'm most interested in just messing with infusion mash schedules personally, that's adequate. I need to work on my mash temp stability before I can really do any good experiments with this.

If there's no real difference in taste between high and low mash temps, then it seems like it makes sense to just shoot for maximum fermentability on every single batch of beer. I would have thought someone would have tried playing with this and doing some side-by-sides by now.

I'm surprised sometimes by how dry a beer will taste and then how some low ending gravity beers seem to have a sweetness/fullness in them. Maybe it's impacted by the yeast, hopping, minerals, carbonation as much as anything, or more so.

__________________
stickyfinger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-15-2014, 03:34 PM   #24
Denny
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eugene OR
Posts: 4,271
Liked 433 Times on 326 Posts
Likes Given: 517

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stickyfinger View Post
I'm personally most interested in one or two questions.

1 - Can i make a beer considerably thinner or richer tasting by varying mash temp

2 - What is the temp of maximum fermentability for a given brewing setup - ie. herms, etc
Greg Doss of Wyeast presented a seminar at the 2012 NHC where he had found maximum fermentability at a mash temp of 153F.
__________________

Life begins at 60....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

http://www.experimentalbrew.com - the website for the book "Experimental Homebrewing"...coming Nov. 2014

Denny is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-16-2014, 12:53 AM   #25
VladOfTrub
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: , Pa
Posts: 566
Liked 100 Times on 75 Posts
Likes Given: 133

Default

"Just an educated guess here, but the Hochkurz method (146-148F followed by 160-162F) would likely maximize fermentability since those temps are selected to maximize activity of alpha then beta amylase enzymes."

Nah. You have the alpha-beta temp thing reversed. However, alpha-a is active at lower temps, only at a slower rate. Chew a chunk of bread for a few minutes. It gets sweeter. The pH of saliva varies between 6.5 and 7.5. Spit contains alpha-a. At 98.6F, spit converts starch to sugar. Just a little about spit and alpha-a.

You want high attenuating highly fermentable wort? Dough in thin. Then, step the temps 145 20 min. 149 20 minutes, 153 15 minutes, 158 10 minutes.

Using the English method, take what you get at whatever conversion temp is decided on. 153F is the cross over temp of beta and alpha. Single infusion doughed in thin at 153 might be the way to go to produce what you are going for. After the wort has fermented, figure out true attenuation. Experimenting is great. Good luck and Brew On!!

__________________
VladOfTrub is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-16-2014, 01:54 PM   #26
SpeedYellow
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,163
Liked 119 Times on 101 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
Greg Doss of Wyeast presented a seminar at the 2012 NHC where he had found maximum fermentability at a mash temp of 153F.
Was he limiting himself to a single conversion temp? Because it would seem that some sort of stepped conversion would do better if attenuation is the goal (although I'm not sure why it would be, but hey that was the question posed).
__________________
SpeedYellow is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-16-2014, 02:13 PM   #27
stickyfinger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: , NY
Posts: 66
Liked 4 Times on 2 Posts

Default

I think they were all single-infusion mashes. I think most people just want to do a single infusion mash for simplicity, including myself. Sometimes, I want to make a beer super dry-tasting and sometimes richer tasting, perhaps a bit sweet or a perception of sweetness. I'm mostly interested in how I can impact that with mash temp, if at all. I just need to do some test batches for myself to see if my system can produce worts that are perceptibly dryer or richer/sweeter after fermentation with only mash temp/time as parameters.

__________________
stickyfinger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-16-2014, 02:49 PM   #28
SpeedYellow
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,163
Liked 119 Times on 101 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stickyfinger View Post
I think they were all single-infusion mashes. I think most people just want to do a single infusion mash for simplicity, including myself. Sometimes, I want to make a beer super dry-tasting and sometimes richer tasting, perhaps a bit sweet or a perception of sweetness. I'm mostly interested in how I can impact that with mash temp, if at all. I just need to do some test batches for myself to see if my system can produce worts that are perceptibly dryer or richer/sweeter after fermentation with only mash temp/time as parameters.
Keep in mind that double-infusion adds very little complication, and no more time, to the process. Like you, I target dryness or more rich or whatever, depending on the beer. Which pushes me toward double-infusion (Hochkurz) on certain beers, and single-infusion on others. It's worth considering.
__________________
SpeedYellow is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-16-2014, 04:42 PM   #29
Denny
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eugene OR
Posts: 4,271
Liked 433 Times on 326 Posts
Likes Given: 517

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedYellow View Post
Was he limiting himself to a single conversion temp? Because it would seem that some sort of stepped conversion would do better if attenuation is the goal (although I'm not sure why it would be, but hey that was the question posed).
IIRC, yeah, he was. FWIW, my own experimentation has found no difference in attenuation in a stepped mash vs. doing the whole mash at the lower step temp.
__________________

Life begins at 60....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

http://www.experimentalbrew.com - the website for the book "Experimental Homebrewing"...coming Nov. 2014

Denny is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-17-2014, 10:40 PM   #30
helibrewer
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
helibrewer's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 3,237
Liked 198 Times on 176 Posts
Likes Given: 47

Default

153F makes pretty good sense. You don't really get conversion going until hitting at least 65C (149F) since this is where starch gelatinizes. A temperature slightly higher than this, like 153F, would provide maximum breakdown of amylose. Temperatures lower than 65C are providing the finishing breakdown of Beta-glucan and are not contributing to starch conversion.

__________________
Something is always fermenting....
"It's Bahl Hornin'"

Primary:
Brite Tank/Lagering:
Kegged: Hefeweizen, Chocolate Hazelnut Porter, Kumquat Saison, Tart Cherry Cider, Belgian Tripel, Maibock Bock, Ommegang Abbey Ale Clone, Belgian Golden Strong, German Pils (WLP830)
Bottled: Belgian Quad (Grand Reserve), Derangement (Belgian Dark Strong)
On Deck:
My Site: www.restlesscellars.com
helibrewer is offline
Denny Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NB Bender Partial Mash - Vanilla Experiment sjuguy All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 1 08-17-2011 05:00 PM
Partial Mash Question - mash temperature too high, low O.G.? KSR All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 8 03-15-2011 08:18 PM
Mash Conversion Experiment buckeyebrewer All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 17 02-18-2011 08:26 PM
3rd partial mash efficiency? + second Double Diamond experiment starrfish All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 6 10-26-2009 06:31 PM
Modified Cereal Mash Experiment - recipe suggestions solicited Jo3sh All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 0 03-06-2008 06:31 PM