Mash Temp vs Carapils

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

AnthonyCB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2011
Messages
103
Reaction score
6
Location
Paris
Is there much difference between mashing low (148F) and adding various dextrinous malts (carapils and light cara/cristal malts) vs skipping these malts and just mashing higher (152F+) for body?

Mike McDole often talks about keeping process constant then solving deficiencies in a given beer using recipe changes. Does anyone out there hold mash temp constant and mess with ingredients vs varying mash temps?

-Anthony
 
What Tasty was saying is that you should look at your process before changing your ingredients. If you get a bad or "not so great" beer its easy to say "should have added ______ " rather than looking at your process. If you just raise your mash temp your going to lose efficiency. It really depends on the beer.


140 Degrees or the Beta-amylase phase Produces a highly fermentable wort or a thinner beer. High Efficiency low body...

150 Degrees or the Alpha & Beta-amylase phase produces wort with both fermentables and non fermentables. Med. Efficiency, Med. Body

158 Degrees or the Alpha-amylase Phase produces a wort high in unfermentables leaving a beer very high in body. Low Efficiency BIG body.
 
My 2 cents, you can adjust either (recipe or process), but try not to do both at once or you won't learn much. For example, if I recall correctly, Jon Plise (spelling?) who was Jamil's original co-host on the style episodes of the Jamil Show, always mashes at 149. Any mods must be done via recipe. I think that came out in the Dortmunder episode. Conversely, if you have a proven recipe, but don't feel you're getting the desired outcome, keep that constant and adjust your process.

Being a typical hypocrite, I tend to ignore my own wisdom and donk around with too much at once. Just being honest.
 
What Tasty was saying is that you should look at your process before changing your ingredients.

Actually, this is not what he is saying. He is saying that if for some reason the beer doesn't turn out hoppy enough, add hops. If it doesn't turn out dark enough add more dark malts. If it doesn't turn out whatever, tweak the recipe. It's easier to be a consistent brewer when you always repeat the same actions and just manipulate the recipe as necessary.

If you just raise your mash temp your going to lose efficiency.

This is actually demostrably false. Higher mash temperatures increase efficiency:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...nd_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing#Time
 
I have another related question. Can mash temp have any impact of dextrinous malts like carapils and other cara/crystal malts? Is there a risk that if they are mashed low in the beta-amylase range that they will be reduced to fermentable sugars?
 
Actually, this is not what he is saying. He is saying that if for some reason the beer doesn't turn out hoppy enough, add hops. If it doesn't turn out dark enough add more dark malts. If it doesn't turn out whatever, tweak the recipe. It's easier to be a consistent brewer when you always repeat the same actions and just manipulate the recipe as necessary.



This is actually demostrably false. Higher mash temperatures increase efficiency:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...nd_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing#Time

Ill have to ask Tasty himself what he meant next time i see him at the monthly DOZE meeting...

These are From the links YOU just gave me... Showing that yes efficiency is LOWERED by higher temps... Did you read through the link?

Temperature_and_attenuation.gif


Mash_thickness_and_attenuation.gif
 
I have another related question. Can mash temp have any impact of dextrinous malts like carapils and other cara/crystal malts? Is there a risk that if they are mashed low in the beta-amylase range that they will be reduced to fermentable sugars?

Read the link YOU posted in the post above.... You answered your own question.
 
Ill have to ask Tasty himself what he meant next time i see him at the monthly DOZE meeting...

These are From the links YOU just gave me... Showing that yes efficiency is LOWERED by higher temps... Did you read through the link?

Temperature_and_attenuation.gif


Mash_thickness_and_attenuation.gif

Next time you go to a DOZE meeting maybe you can listen for a change? Maybe you can even have Tasty teach you how to read the legend of a scatter chart while you're at it?

As I said: "Higher mash temperatures increase efficiency"

In chart one the red dots are "brewhouse yield" (aka efficiency). These show that higher temps = higher efficiency. The downward sloping blue dots indicate "limit of attenuation" which is fermentability not efficiency.

In cart 2 attenuation is discussed which has nothing to do with efficiency, just fermentability.

In cart 3 all three efficiency charts are upward sloping though I'd agree that the blue and yellow series aren't particularly compelling (higher temps = higher efficiency).
 
Read the link YOU posted in the post above.... You answered your own question.

I only see them doing tests on base malts. I glossed through it and did some keyword searches and couldn't find anything on cara or crystal malts which have already been converted in the processing that takes place post malting.
 
What Tasty was saying is that you should look at your process before changing your ingredients. If you get a bad or "not so great" beer its easy to say "should have added ______ " rather than looking at your process. If you just raise your mash temp your going to lose efficiency. It really depends on the beer.


140 Degrees or the Beta-amylase phase Produces a highly fermentable wort or a thinner beer. High Efficiency low body...

150 Degrees or the Alpha & Beta-amylase phase produces wort with both fermentables and non fermentables. Med. Efficiency, Med. Body

158 Degrees or the Alpha-amylase Phase produces a wort high in unfermentables leaving a beer very high in body. Low Efficiency BIG body.

It occurs to me that maybe the issue here is that you don't know the difference between fermentability/attenuation and brew house efficiency.

Attenuation:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Attenuation

Efficency:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/06/27/brew-house-efficiency-defined/
 
There was a thread about the attenuation of crystal malts a while back. I believe Nilo started it. EDIT: I don't remember if he tried different mash temperatures though.
 
There was a thread about the attenuation of crystal malts a while back. I believe Nilo started it. EDIT: I don't remember if he tried different mash temperatures though.

Thanks. This one?: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/testing-fermentability-crystal-malt-208361/

It looks like he kept the temperature constant at 155. This summary post is really interesting:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/t...-crystal-malt-208361/index11.html#post2721761

I think it does a lot to answer my question. Carapils (since it is similar to C10) is actually quite fermentable especially when mashed. I wish I knew exactly how temperature impacted this. It would also be nice to know how changing the temperature impacted wort composition vs adding dextrinous malts.
 
If you look at the delirium tremens thread "pink elephant" I posted a chart with fermentability vs. extract efficiency.

Extract goes up with temperature (within reason), but fermentability drops.

P.S. step mashing is for winners.
 
Next time you go to a DOZE meeting maybe you can listen for a change? Maybe you can even have Tasty teach you how to read the legend of a scatter chart while you're at it?

As I said: "Higher mash temperatures increase efficiency"

In chart one the red dots are "brewhouse yield" (aka efficiency). These show that higher temps = higher efficiency. The downward sloping blue dots indicate "limit of attenuation" which is ferment-ability not efficiency.

In cart 2 attenuation is discussed which has nothing to do with efficiency, just ferment-ability.

In cart 3 all three efficiency charts are upward sloping though I'd agree that the blue and yellow series aren't particularly compelling (higher temps = higher efficiency).
There are two types of efficiency, Brewhouse efficiency and Mash efficiency.

* Brewhouse efficiency measures the yield of the entire process against the theoretical yield.
* Mash efficiency measures specifically the extract from mashing and lautering.

Brewhouse efficiency includes lauter efficiency and also other losses in the brewing process after lautering, such as losses in the kettle (trub/hop absorption), losses the chiller, in racking and to trub. Your limit of Attenuation is your mash efficiency. IT EVEN SAYS THAT ON THE SCATTER GRAPH! Look at left hand side
"Limit of Attenuation/Efficiency in %"

((grain points)*(pounds of grain)) / (volume in gallons) = extract potential

(measured points) / (potential points) = mash efficiency


Your "Potential sugars" will not change on temp or mashing technique. Its always based on the grain. If the maximum your yeast can "Attenuate" is lowered then your final line or EFFICENCY will lower as well.

Lower Temperatures = Higher FERMENTABLE sugars = better Efficiency and less body
Higher temperatures = Higher UNFERMENTABLE sugars = less efficiency, More body

Its really not rocket science... Maybe YOU should listen for a change. But you wont... and chances are you will come back with some crock response that doesn't prove anything and will just be chasing your own tail. Another response from me will just fall on deaf ears. I will not waste my time anymore.

If you look at the delirium tremens thread "pink elephant" I posted a chart with fermentability vs. extract efficiency.

Extract goes up with temperature (within reason), but fermentability drops.

P.S. step mashing is for winners.

:mug:
 
There are two types of efficiency, Brewhouse efficiency and Mash efficiency.

* Brewhouse efficiency measures the yield of the entire process against the theoretical yield.
* Mash efficiency measures specifically the extract from mashing and lautering.

Brewhouse efficiency includes lauter efficiency and also other losses in the brewing process after lautering, such as losses in the kettle (trub/hop absorption), losses the chiller, in racking and to trub. Your limit of Attenuation is your mash efficiency. IT EVEN SAYS THAT ON THE SCATTER GRAPH! Look at left hand side

((grain points)*(pounds of grain)) / (volume in gallons) = extract potential

(measured points) / (potential points) = mash efficiency


Your "Potential sugars" will not change on temp or mashing technique. Its always based on the grain. If the maximum your yeast can "Attenuate" is lowered then your final line or EFFICENCY will lower as well.

Lower Temperatures = Higher FERMENTABLE sugars = better Efficiency and less body
Higher temperatures = Higher UNFERMENTABLE sugars = less efficiency, More body

Its really not rocket science... Maybe YOU should listen for a change. But you wont... and chances are you will come back with some crock response that doesn't prove anything and will just be chasing your own tail. Another response from me will just fall on deaf ears. I will not waste my time anymore.



:mug:

I'm sorry to say, but you're wrong. Your mash efficiency is the brewhouse yield minus the losses that are included in the brewhouse yield. That chart isn't saying that the limit of attenuation is the same thing as efficiency. The scatter plot is showing both the limit of attenuation and the efficiency on the same chart. If your idea of attenuation == efficiency were true, then one could increase their mash efficiency by using a Belgian strain instead of an English strain. That doesn't make much sense.

EDIT: Also, ChillWill wasn't agreeing with you.
 
Well then, i must be off my rocker/Confused/Drunk all at the same time... Happens all to often. The concept of Fermeability and Attenuation has got to be mixing me up somewhere.

BTY - PUlled that equation off of Brewers Friend - http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/06/27/brew-house-efficiency-defined/

Fermentability describes the maximum (or limit of) attenuation that is possible. The actual attenuation that you end up with will obviously depend on the yeast in addition to the mash temperature.
 
Back
Top