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Old 05-12-2012, 01:34 PM   #1
AnthonyCB
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Default Mash Temp vs Carapils

Is there much difference between mashing low (148F) and adding various dextrinous malts (carapils and light cara/cristal malts) vs skipping these malts and just mashing higher (152F+) for body?

Mike McDole often talks about keeping process constant then solving deficiencies in a given beer using recipe changes. Does anyone out there hold mash temp constant and mess with ingredients vs varying mash temps?

-Anthony



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Old 05-12-2012, 02:33 PM   #2
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What Tasty was saying is that you should look at your process before changing your ingredients. If you get a bad or "not so great" beer its easy to say "should have added ______ " rather than looking at your process. If you just raise your mash temp your going to lose efficiency. It really depends on the beer.


140 Degrees or the Beta-amylase phase Produces a highly fermentable wort or a thinner beer. High Efficiency low body...

150 Degrees or the Alpha & Beta-amylase phase produces wort with both fermentables and non fermentables. Med. Efficiency, Med. Body

158 Degrees or the Alpha-amylase Phase produces a wort high in unfermentables leaving a beer very high in body. Low Efficiency BIG body.



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SILVER - BABO - "Oaked Whiskey Vanilla Porter"
SILVER - Celebrewtion - "Bourbon Vanilla Porter"
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Old 05-12-2012, 03:03 PM   #3
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My 2 cents, you can adjust either (recipe or process), but try not to do both at once or you won't learn much. For example, if I recall correctly, Jon Plise (spelling?) who was Jamil's original co-host on the style episodes of the Jamil Show, always mashes at 149. Any mods must be done via recipe. I think that came out in the Dortmunder episode. Conversely, if you have a proven recipe, but don't feel you're getting the desired outcome, keep that constant and adjust your process.

Being a typical hypocrite, I tend to ignore my own wisdom and donk around with too much at once. Just being honest.

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Old 05-12-2012, 03:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBronco View Post
What Tasty was saying is that you should look at your process before changing your ingredients.
Actually, this is not what he is saying. He is saying that if for some reason the beer doesn't turn out hoppy enough, add hops. If it doesn't turn out dark enough add more dark malts. If it doesn't turn out whatever, tweak the recipe. It's easier to be a consistent brewer when you always repeat the same actions and just manipulate the recipe as necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBronco View Post
If you just raise your mash temp your going to lose efficiency.
This is actually demostrably false. Higher mash temperatures increase efficiency:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Effects_of_mash_parameters_on_ferm entability_and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashi ng#Time
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:17 AM   #5
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I have another related question. Can mash temp have any impact of dextrinous malts like carapils and other cara/crystal malts? Is there a risk that if they are mashed low in the beta-amylase range that they will be reduced to fermentable sugars?

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Old 05-15-2012, 02:48 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyCB View Post
Actually, this is not what he is saying. He is saying that if for some reason the beer doesn't turn out hoppy enough, add hops. If it doesn't turn out dark enough add more dark malts. If it doesn't turn out whatever, tweak the recipe. It's easier to be a consistent brewer when you always repeat the same actions and just manipulate the recipe as necessary.



This is actually demostrably false. Higher mash temperatures increase efficiency:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Effects_of_mash_parameters_on_ferm entability_and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashi ng#Time
Ill have to ask Tasty himself what he meant next time i see him at the monthly DOZE meeting...

These are From the links YOU just gave me... Showing that yes efficiency is LOWERED by higher temps... Did you read through the link?



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On Deck ______________ Tasty's Brown (Brown with NB)
1st Primary ____________ Sour Pliny
Kegged________________ Sangio.Port Wine
Bottle Ageing __________ Giddy Gremlin, RyIIIPAWhiskey Vanilla Porter (Bottled 4-20)

SILVER - BABO - "Oaked Whiskey Vanilla Porter"
SILVER - Celebrewtion - "Bourbon Vanilla Porter"
GOLD - BABO - "Hoptop"
SILVER - BABO - "Screaming Cream"
Honorable Mention: (x2) Giddy Gremlin RyIIpa (x1) Pliny The Mexican

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Old 05-15-2012, 02:50 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyCB View Post
I have another related question. Can mash temp have any impact of dextrinous malts like carapils and other cara/crystal malts? Is there a risk that if they are mashed low in the beta-amylase range that they will be reduced to fermentable sugars?
Read the link YOU posted in the post above.... You answered your own question.
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On Deck ______________ Tasty's Brown (Brown with NB)
1st Primary ____________ Sour Pliny
Kegged________________ Sangio.Port Wine
Bottle Ageing __________ Giddy Gremlin, RyIIIPAWhiskey Vanilla Porter (Bottled 4-20)

SILVER - BABO - "Oaked Whiskey Vanilla Porter"
SILVER - Celebrewtion - "Bourbon Vanilla Porter"
GOLD - BABO - "Hoptop"
SILVER - BABO - "Screaming Cream"
Honorable Mention: (x2) Giddy Gremlin RyIIpa (x1) Pliny The Mexican

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Old 05-15-2012, 05:51 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBronco View Post
Ill have to ask Tasty himself what he meant next time i see him at the monthly DOZE meeting...

These are From the links YOU just gave me... Showing that yes efficiency is LOWERED by higher temps... Did you read through the link?



Next time you go to a DOZE meeting maybe you can listen for a change? Maybe you can even have Tasty teach you how to read the legend of a scatter chart while you're at it?

As I said: "Higher mash temperatures increase efficiency"

In chart one the red dots are "brewhouse yield" (aka efficiency). These show that higher temps = higher efficiency. The downward sloping blue dots indicate "limit of attenuation" which is fermentability not efficiency.

In cart 2 attenuation is discussed which has nothing to do with efficiency, just fermentability.

In cart 3 all three efficiency charts are upward sloping though I'd agree that the blue and yellow series aren't particularly compelling (higher temps = higher efficiency).
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Old 05-15-2012, 05:56 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBronco View Post
Read the link YOU posted in the post above.... You answered your own question.
I only see them doing tests on base malts. I glossed through it and did some keyword searches and couldn't find anything on cara or crystal malts which have already been converted in the processing that takes place post malting.
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Old 05-15-2012, 06:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBronco View Post
What Tasty was saying is that you should look at your process before changing your ingredients. If you get a bad or "not so great" beer its easy to say "should have added ______ " rather than looking at your process. If you just raise your mash temp your going to lose efficiency. It really depends on the beer.


140 Degrees or the Beta-amylase phase Produces a highly fermentable wort or a thinner beer. High Efficiency low body...

150 Degrees or the Alpha & Beta-amylase phase produces wort with both fermentables and non fermentables. Med. Efficiency, Med. Body

158 Degrees or the Alpha-amylase Phase produces a wort high in unfermentables leaving a beer very high in body. Low Efficiency BIG body.
It occurs to me that maybe the issue here is that you don't know the difference between fermentability/attenuation and brew house efficiency.

Attenuation:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Attenuation

Efficency:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/06/27/brew-house-efficiency-defined/


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