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Old 03-09-2011, 08:05 PM   #11
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sure mashing out increases your efficiency out of your first runnings, but does your overall efficiency change with and without a mash-out? even if it did increase it by a few meager points, they're highly unfermentable and thus mostly useless added points. aside from causing the alpha amylase going into hyper mode and converting whatever starches are left, the mash out doesnt add any sugars that your sparge wouldnt.
Why would a mashout extract highly unfermentable and thus mostly useless added points? That makes no sense whatsoever. The higher temps increase the solubility of the sugars allowing them to be more completely extracted from the grain bed. IME, a mashout increases the yield by much more than a few meager points. You are right that a mash out does not add any sugars, but it does enable more efficient extraction of the already converted sugars which will result in higher sparge efficiency.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:23 PM   #12
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Why would a mashout extract highly unfermentable and thus mostly useless added points? That makes no sense whatsoever. The higher temps increase the solubility of the sugars allowing them to be more completely extracted from the grain bed. IME, a mashout increases the yield by much more than a few meager points. You are right that a mash out does not add any sugars, but it does enable more efficient extraction of the already converted sugars which will result in higher sparge efficiency.
If the mashout were to add to your efficiency, it would be because it converted some leftover starches. since the temps this would be converted at would be so high, the sugars would be longer and will be largely unfermentable.

I agree that the higher temps should increase the solubility of the sugars (although like Bobby_M pointed out, Kaiser may have partially busted that), but what is the mash-out then extracting that the sparge would not?
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:35 PM   #13
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If the mashout were to add to your efficiency, it would be because it converted some leftover starches. since the temps this would be converted at would be so high, the sugars would be longer and will be largely unfermentable.

I agree that the higher temps should increase the solubility of the sugars (although like Bobby_M pointed out, Kaiser may have partially busted that), but what is the mash-out then extracting that the sparge would not?
I've checked my mash conversion efficiency more than a few times using Kaiser's method and it was always at or very near 100%. The results were so consistent that I no longer bother with the test. IMO, unless you are screwing up the mash somehow, there will be no significant amount of starch left to convert and thusly, very little to no unfermentable sugars will be extracted. I don't have any problems with my beers not finishing out, so I see no reason to avoid doing a mash out. My extraction efficiency, however, has significantly improved since I began routinely doing a mash out, so I plan to continue doing one.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:51 PM   #14
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I've checked my mash conversion efficiency more than a few times using Kaiser's method and it was always at or very near 100%. The results were so consistent that I no longer bother with the test. IMO, unless you are screwing up the mash somehow, there will be no significant amount of starch left to convert and thusly, very little to no unfermentable sugars will be extracted.
totally missing my point. I never advocated that there was sugar added from the mash out, only that if mash out were to increase efficiency it would be due to converting any remaining starches that weren't. I agree there is essentially no added sugar from the mash out. if there is, its in the realm of < 3%.

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My extraction efficiency, however, has significantly improved since I began routinely doing a mash out, so I plan to continue doing one.
just to be clear, is this beyond your first runnings?
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Old 03-10-2011, 11:55 AM   #15
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If the mashout were to add to your efficiency, it would be because it converted some leftover starches. since the temps this would be converted at would be so high, the sugars would be longer and will be largely unfermentable.
Can you explain why unfermentable sugars are such a bad thing? Don't we want some of that?
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:51 PM   #16
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Can you explain why unfermentable sugars are such a bad thing? Don't we want some of that?
Of course we do, I'm not saying we don't or that they're bad at all. My point is that the only way a mash out could actually add to your efficiency would be if it converted the very minimal, <3 %, amount of starches left. However, because these sugars would be so unfermentable it would decrease the fermentability. so if you want to count that little bit higher as an increase in efficiency despite it decreasing fermentability, all the power to you. IMO, its insignificant
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:49 PM   #17
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OK gotcha. TBH, I'm not worried about getting high efficiency and intentionally try to keep it ~75% (mostly by sparging less). The tiny extra expense from a bit more malt is a non-issue for me. Fermentability is a big issue imo but I always seem to get better attenuation with a given yeast strain and mashing at a given temp than most recipes suggest, so a little less fermentability is often welcome for me (yes, I calibrate my thermometers ).

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