Low efficiency issues with large % wheat bills

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tdexterc

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Hey guys, I have done a number of beers which use a low % wheat bill which have come out just fine, and many AG batches with good efficiency, but I've also done 2 hefeweizens now, each with a 50% wheat bill. They both came out at around 55% efficiency... Usually I hit around 75-78% no problem with my setup, and I only ever have problems on efficiency when brewing with large amounts of wheat. For most beers I do a single infusion mash for about 60-90 minutes at about 150-152 degrees. I also always use rice hulls with a large wheat % and never get a stuck sparge. Does anybody else have any problems with getting efficiency from wheat? I know decoction mashing is common with hefes which I have not started doing yet. What else could I be doing wrong? I only run my grains through the mill once at my LHBS, and somebody said this could be the culprit due to the different size/shape of wheat kernel vs barley, and suggested that I run the wheat through a second time to crush it more (LHBS frowns on adjusting the roller width, but they might make an exception). Could this be my problem? I've also never done any water testing/additives other than filter my well water and never had any conversion issues. Could I be lacking minerals in there which contribute to a poor conversion with wheat? Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
 
My hefe just came in around 60% too. Interested to see some responses.


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I'll be brewing my first all-grain hefe next, so no experience yet. But a BYO article http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/11-beer-styles/293-brewing-hefe-weizen-tips-from-the-pros states "another suggestion is to maintain a coarse grind on your wheat malt and malted barley. This might sacrifice some yield, but it will prevent you from pulverizing your wheat malt into fine powder, which will set like concrete during the sparge. More important, the larger barley husks will create a thicker filter bed." This sounds like a finer crush wouldn't be a good idea. Hope this helps.
 
I'll be brewing my first all-grain hefe next, so no experience yet. But a BYO article http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/11-beer-styles/293-brewing-hefe-weizen-tips-from-the-pros states "another suggestion is to maintain a coarse grind on your wheat malt and malted barley. This might sacrifice some yield, but it will prevent you from pulverizing your wheat malt into fine powder, which will set like concrete during the sparge. More important, the larger barley husks will create a thicker filter bed." This sounds like a finer crush wouldn't be a good idea. Hope this helps.

But it doesn't address the efficiency question unless the OP and 2nd poster both actually heeded this advice.

Did you guys coarse crush your wheat?

I don't have an answer, but I'm looking forward to seeing what people come up with, because I recently did 3 different batches of Saison all with lots of flaked wheat, and while not as low as you guys did, I missed my extraction numbers on all three batches.
 
Yes, I also have 60%-esque efficiency when brewing hefeweizens. The last time I tried one was before I had my own grain mill, so I would like to give a finer crush (and a healthy mass of rice hulls, of course) a shot. I remember being told by my LHBS that wheat tends to form doughballs much more than other grains, so a good mix with the paddle every 15 minutes or so is also in my future. Other than that, I dunno. Like everything, try, try again (until you get bored by failure, then move on).
 
Yes I did do a coarse crush with rice hulls, and I've never had any issues with getting a stuck sparge, even without touching the grainbed during the mash. Having never had any sparge issues, I think i'm going to send my wheat through the mill a second time the next time I brew with it and see if it helps at all. Still very interested in hearing from others. It's good to know that I'm not alone in having wheat conversion issues!
 
I would say my wheat was rather chunky. I left my mill set at .035 and stirred like crazy. I didn't feel any clumps.


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I think the wheat is a smaller kernel, and likely is not getting adequately crushed to yield good efficiency. I think some crush the wheat separately at a finer setting.

That's what I would do if not so lazy...haha. For a dollar I choose to let an additional pound of wheat free.


Wilserbrewer
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Ok, brewed my hefeweizen today. 50% pilsner, 50% wheat malt. I crushed the pilsner at 0.035 on my Cereal Killer mill, and the wheat at the lowest setting, 0.025. Added .5 pounds of rice hulls, and even that wasn't enough to keep the sparge from initially getting a little stuck. I performed everything according to my usual methods (which yields me 80% brewhouse efficiency) and came away with a 72.5% efficiency on this one. That's actually much better than the 60-some% I got trying this recipe a few years ago (when I had my LHBS do all my milling), so I am suspecting that the finer crush is the reason the extraction was better. But it seems even that has its limits (unless I double crush the wheat, which I may try doing next time).

I don't know if I'll be able to get much better than this, so next time I brew a hefe I will target my efficiency at 72.5% and be pleasantly surprised if it goes higher than that. Did anyone else do any experimenting with this?
 
I use a ghetto ugly junk grain mill and wheat and rye are noticeably harder than barley. I BIAB, so I grind a lot of flour as I can't get stuck. I have never had issues, but I haven't done more than about 30% wheat.

Maybe sneak in some 6 row for more diastic power.
 
I use a ghetto ugly junk grain mill and wheat and rye are noticeably harder than barley. I BIAB, so I grind a lot of flour as I can't get stuck. I have never had issues, but I haven't done more than about 30% wheat.

Maybe sneak in some 6 row for more diastic power.

This is the key to great efficiency when working with wheat or rye. BIAB so you don't get stuck and then mill all the grains really fine. You can use up to about 65% unmalted wheat with pale malt for full conversion, maybe a little more with 6 row. I've done 60% wheat with good conversion and efficiency.
 
I have accepted the lower efficiency of wheat beers and adjusted my grain bill accordingly... Probably costs me an extra $2 bucks a batch.

My efficiency has been between 55 and 60% with the Hefe recipe I use and my OG's have been 1.045 to 1.049.

I'm good with it.
 
Wheat and rye are much harder, denser than barley. It takes a lot longer for the hot water to penetrate it and get the starches out for conversion. Fine crush or extended mashes are the trick.
 
Wheat and rye are much harder, denser than barley. It takes a lot longer for the hot water to penetrate it and get the starches out for conversion. Fine crush or extended mashes are the trick.

Must be why I experienced low efficiency on my Weizenbock. It had ~50% Weyermann Pale Wheat malt.


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My honey wheat came in for me at 57% efficiency! OG was 1.042, expected 1.050. I did a 60 minute mash. Hmmmmmm...


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I gotten 79% and 83% efficiency with the last two 50% wheat beers I've brewed...a Belgian Wit with 43% American White Wheat and 30% Flaked Wheat and a Hefe using 61% German Wheat. I've mashed both at about 152 degrees, typically using .5lbs of rice hulls and fly sparged. I crush the wheat right along with the rest of my grain bill at whatever setting my LHBS shop has set (I have no idea what it is set at). I use 1.5 quarts of sparge water to every 1 pound of grain.

I seem to recall having efficiency issues before I began fly sparging...maybe had one or two around 60%ish...
 
Interesting... I still do single infusion with a double batch sparge and for 90% of the beers I brew this works great. Maybe I'll have to try my hands at a fly sparge for the next wheat heavy beer I do.
 
FWIW, I got a 10% increase in my efficiency when I ran the wheat though the mill twice. I am too lazy to adjust the gap on my barley crusher and the double crush seemed like the easiest solution. My efficiency is pretty similar to what I get with all barley mashes.
 
Yeah, I like the idea of double-milling the wheat. I'll give that a try before long and report back here.


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Okay, I can now tell you something else that doesn't work. Instead of double-milling I went for a decoction, as a real-world friend suggested I give that a shot to improve efficiency. While it was fun (I'd never done a decoction before), it did not improve efficiency; in fact, I even lost a point (now I'm down to 71% efficiency). Fortunately, I really like hefeweizens, so I'm going to keep brewing this until I figure out how to get it up to my typical 80%. Next time I'm double-milling the wheat on my mill's finest setting, I swear. Stay tuned.
 
Wow, this thread is awesome timing. I did my first-ever AG brew on Labor Day and it was a dunkel (because it's my favorite) and was disappointed in my 61% efficiency batch sparge. I thought I was being super-cautious by expecting 70% so that was kind of a bummer...makes me feel better to know that wheat in general might just be tougher to deal with than your average grain, and so maybe that's not an indictment on me as a brewer! Also, that maybe I should have chose an easier beer the first time out... :)

One thing I did identify after reviewing my process is I didn't mash nearly long enough. I have long thought that you can count the time spent at mash-out temperature in the overall amount of time spent mashing...just now learning that's not true. So my mash was effectively 45 minutes...given that, maybe 61% was actually pretty good under the circumstances.
 
I usually get ~80% efficiency with hefes which is equal to my barley based beers, and my hefes are 70% wheat. I do grind the wheat separately -which I suspect like most people here to be the problem, at a much finer setting at my LHBS' nice roller mill. (and finer than they recommend) and do a double decoction, with an infusion to mash out. And around a 90min sac rest. (I use some enzymes in the decoction sac rests to get conversion in 30, as a time saver, cause its already a long day) I aim for a ph of 5.2/5.3.

I use a few handfuls of rice hulls, but never had anything close to stuck sparge with my set up.
 
I too mill my wheat separately from other grains. I have a separate mill for each. I also use a corona style mill for wheat I find that it grinds better then it crushes and I go pretty fine since there is no worry about shredding husks. I use a mm2 for barley. A handful or two of rice hulls and have never had a stuck sparge. and average about 77% for efficiency.
 
This is great to hear everybody else's techniques. Also reassuring to know that I'm not alone in having particular difficulty with wheat. I've just got to remember to keep my wheat separate when milling next time I use it!
 
Finally got around to brewing my third iteration in my hefeweizen experiment, and the results are in! The best way to get the most out of your wheat is... *drumroll* double milling!

Today I double milled the wheat on the tightest setting on my mill (and the torque caused by the grinding almost wrenched the drill right out of my hand!), and, all other brewing factors being the same as my first two experiments, my efficiency was right back up to where it should be.

Here are the results. The ingredients are the same for each recipe, the only difference being listed before the resulting OG.

Target OG: 1.048 (80% brewhouse efficiency)

Batch 1 (single fine grind): 1.044 (72.5% brewhouse efficiency)
Batch 2 (single fine grind & decoction mash): 1.043 (71% brewhouse efficiency)
Batch 3 (double fine grind): 1.048 (80% brewhouse efficiency)

I'm glad to have gotten to this point as hefeweizen is one of my favorite styles, and now that I can hit my target I can start experimenting.
 
Awesome! This is great information. I just recently got my own mill so I'll be doing this for sure. Before that I asked my shop to do a double grind on a high percentage wheat brew and the results were definitely better than a single grind.
 
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