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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Let's Talk about My APA - Malt Analysis Inside
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Old 09-16-2008, 02:30 PM   #11
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So is the science behind the protease rests not welcome here? I'm having a blast with this "problem" and thought I'd share. Is there an advanced brewing sub-forum I am not seeing where the tech-heads go to discuss these things? It is actually a good bit more in depth and challenging than just "mash at 122º and cross your fingers!" Noonan wrote a book about the importance of these analysis's (sp?) because it is very much misunderstood and neglected.

Do you ever use brewing salts in your mash??? Then why would you NOT care about what's in your malt? The malt profile is as, if not more, important to the beer as the water profile is (and the experts agree with that statement BTW)! I've done some searching on this forum, and there are a handful of people that do discuss these profiles and make educated decisions about brewing based on them. I guess I was hoping they would chime in too.

In a world where the "experts" in this industry go to school to learn this type of thing, you as a brewer should never be so arrogant to advise that I've "tried everything." I'm only scratching the surface of this issue.

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Old 09-16-2008, 04:36 PM   #12
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I believe your haze problem is inherent in your malt, according to Cargill's malt analysis. The total protein is high (13.5) and the SNR is also high (50). This malt was probably intended to be used with a significant proportion of adjuncts. I would get rid of any rests besides Saccharification (and higher) and add a significant portion of a malt with a lower TP and SNR to your recipes. That should solve it.

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Old 09-16-2008, 04:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by INeedANewHobby View Post
So is the science behind the protease rests not welcome here? I'm having a blast with this "problem" and thought I'd share. Is there an advanced brewing sub-forum I am not seeing where the tech-heads go to discuss these things? It is actually a good bit more in depth and challenging than just "mash at 122º and cross your fingers!" Noonan wrote a book about the importance of these analysis's (sp?) because it is very much misunderstood and neglected.

Do you ever use brewing salts in your mash??? Then why would you NOT care about what's in your malt? The malt profile is as, if not more, important to the beer as the water profile is (and the experts agree with that statement BTW)! I've done some searching on this forum, and there are a handful of people that do discuss these profiles and make educated decisions about brewing based on them. I guess I was hoping they would chime in too.

In a world where the "experts" in this industry go to school to learn this type of thing, you as a brewer should never be so arrogant to advise that I've "tried everything." I'm only scratching the surface of this issue.

[/RANT]
I'll back you up. If the chill haze problem is important to you then definately look into it some more. I would recommend sending a PM to one of the people on the forum who might have some insight on this issue. Kaiser comes to mind. Or if you have the time/desire, try brewing using a protease rest. Many of us are satisfied enough that chill haze doesn't bother us, or we use other means to clear our beer like gelatin. For the majority, I'd say its probably because of the time that would be needed for the extra rest. Again, I understand your frustration and if you aren't getting the answers you need in this thread it's because the right people haven't seen it yet, so you need to get their attention. Hope your problem is resolved.
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Old 09-16-2008, 04:46 PM   #14
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So no acid rest, protein rest, etc except for sacc? My cream ale had 1lb of flaked rice in it, and if I recall correctly 1/2lb of 6-row for more diastatic power.

So you think maybe a bit more rice? 2lbs? 3? I've got right about 20lbs of this malt left, so I think I can get two more cream ales attempts out of it, and I'm open to your suggestions!!

Thanks!!

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Old 09-16-2008, 04:50 PM   #15
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Thanks McKBrew! I am not so concerned with haze because I want to win awards really, but for my own vanity (starting out as a Coors Light drinker, I appreciate clear beer still) and love of this hobby. I am intrigued by this new technical side of brewing, and am sure there are others here that share that passion!

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Old 09-16-2008, 06:16 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by INeedANewHobby View Post
So is the science behind the protease rests not welcome here? I'm having a blast with this "problem" and thought I'd share. Is there an advanced brewing sub-forum I am not seeing where the tech-heads go to discuss these things? It is actually a good bit more in depth and challenging than just "mash at 122º and cross your fingers!" Noonan wrote a book about the importance of these analysis's (sp?) because it is very much misunderstood and neglected.

Do you ever use brewing salts in your mash??? Then why would you NOT care about what's in your malt? The malt profile is as, if not more, important to the beer as the water profile is (and the experts agree with that statement BTW)! I've done some searching on this forum, and there are a handful of people that do discuss these profiles and make educated decisions about brewing based on them. I guess I was hoping they would chime in too.

In a world where the "experts" in this industry go to school to learn this type of thing, you as a brewer should never be so arrogant to advise that I've "tried everything." I'm only scratching the surface of this issue.

[/RANT]
I am terribly sorry I couldn't go much farther than I did. I'm also sorry you seem to think I'm not making educated decisions about them. So far as I know, there isn't some super-secret sub-forum where the home-brewing Illuminati discuss things we deem over the heads of everyone else. Also so far as I know, I never said any part of your problem was off-limits to discussion.

I do not use brewing salts in my mash, for several reasons: 1., I don't make beers that require modification of my brewing liquor, and 2., I'm satisfied that my liquor provides everything I need to make good beer. I do, however, have quite a bit of experience in the field, professionally and avocationally.

I realize you're only scratching the surface. The trouble is you really have pretty much exhausted all of the techniques you can bring to bear. The interactions in water and malt chemistry are so complex as to be unpredictable without a lot more data. Do you have a complete analysis of your brewing liquor?

All I was trying to do was approach your problem from a practical standpoint. I'm not a good-enough teacher to be able to instruct you on complex mash chemical reactions, and for that I apologize. You have exhausted all of the practical solutions I can bring to bear.

Most homebrewers don't feel the need to go so far as to pay attention to their malt analysis. They're satisfied with what comes out of their mash-tun. If they're not, they seek a couple of solutions or just deal with whatever "problem" might be solved by a thorough examination of the analysis data. That's because, on a homebrew scale, actually acquiring the analysis for the malt you've purchased is extremely difficult. In fact, maltsters generally publish "typical" malt analyses, which are provided before purchase, and a lot analysis of the malt, which is provided at the time of purchase. If you can get the lot analysis, great! Most homebrewers can't even get the analysis, much less be bothered to investigate it.

Have you seen this website? Noonan goes into considerable detail about how to actually read the analyses. I'll quote what I consider the essential bits for your particular problem:

Quote:
For all-malt beers, protein values exceeding 12% (1.9% TN) indicate that the beer may haze or present mash runoff problems. When adjuncts are used, malts of more than 10% protein are required to achieve acceptable head, body, and yeast nutrition.
and

Quote:
Brewers can accommodate increases in total protein and SNR by adding or modifying low-temperature rests. Decreases are accomodated by shortening the duration of or deleting low-temperature rests.
Once again, we arrive at a bit of a wall, so far as my knowledge extends. It seems that low-temperature rest(s) are the solution, and I encourage you to try the rest advised by the maltster.

Again, I'm sorry I can't be of more help to you. I hope you do devise a solution!

Bob
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Old 09-16-2008, 06:25 PM   #17
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Bob and Mensch made some good points here. The malt is rather high in protein. 13.5% is an awful lot for 2-row barley. No wonder it was cheap. Although your soluble protein ratio is well above 40, which generally indicates that you don’t need a protein rest, such a rest may be necessary to degrade even more of the protein. Haze proteins are to large for the yeast to consume and to small to coagulate during the boil and chilling. As Bob said, add a protein rest and if the maltster suggests starting at 106F, start there.

The problem is that little is known, even among experienced home brewers, about the protein rests. Their affect is not as easy to measure as attenuation and because of the malts available these days it is rarely needed. Would you be able to make this malt work for you? Sure, but it may take some experimenting (since you don’t want to overdo the protein degradation), like a big brewer would, and you would probably use the whole bag of malt for this. And then you have to decide if you want to stick with this malt or find one that has less protein to start with.

I’m surprised that gelatin didn’t work for you. It does a very good job on protein haze. You could try PVPP and see if that works. If it works your haze is actually from tannins.

Aside from that here are other options:
- dilute with rice or corn (you already mentioned that). This is what the big American brewers had to do when they wanted to brew a delicate beer with 6-row.
- use the malt for wheat beers

I once brewed a Pale Ale with a single infusion and Weyermann Pilsner malt. The beer never cleared. But I have been able to brew clear beers w/o a protein rest from Weyermann Pilsner malt (other bags though) since then.

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Old 09-16-2008, 06:29 PM   #18
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Brewers can accommodate increases in total protein and SNR by adding or modifying low-temperature rests. Decreases are accomodated by shortening the duration of or deleting low-temperature rests.
This seems to go against Noonan's own book New Brewing Lager Beer, where he significantly increases protein-related rest temperatures for higher SNRs.
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Old 09-16-2008, 06:33 PM   #19
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One more.

You said that you got the malt from a local brewery. Tell them about your problem and what mash schedule you are using and ask how they are using this malt. This may get you a better starting point.

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Old 09-16-2008, 07:15 PM   #20
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Bob: Don't think that I am trying to downplay your replies. You gave me more than I have received anywhere else except in this thread, and I am appreciative.

Thanks for the feedback, Kai! I do have a call into the head brewer at the local brewery that got us the malt. I will see what they've done with it. I'm assuming their clear beer has been partly due to filtering, but we'll see! I guess I could filter as well, but I'm enjoying learning about this so much that I hope it won't be needed!

So the maltster and Noonan (in the excerpt quoted above) recommend a lower temp rest...but Noonan's book says otherwise?? My copy of the book is on order and should be here soon!

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