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-   -   Let's Talk about My APA - Malt Analysis Inside (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/lets-talk-about-my-apa-malt-analysis-inside-80484/)

INeedANewHobby 09-15-2008 02:45 AM

Let's Talk about My APA - Malt Analysis Inside
 
I haven't been able to get an exact malt analysis from the maltster just yet, but am working on it. For now, we'll use the analysis they provide online!

BACKGROUND: I came upon a deal with our local brewery where we could get bulk grain at great pricing. I jumped on it. I purchased a big bag of Schreier 2-row malt. I made an APA, a cream ale, an Amber Ale, and the same Cream Ale again. ALL of them have been hella chill hazy! For each I did a single infusion AG batch (152-155 for each). I have used Irish Moss, Super Moss, etc on each. I use basically RO water to brew with, with Buffer 5.2 in the mash. For the most recent Cream Ale, I even direct fired it, with a protein rest at 122 before moving onto my Sacc rest at 151, then mash out. There was a very healthy layer of proteins in the mash tun after sparging!

This was a VERYYY clear beer at room temp in the bottles. But as soon as the cold got it, hazy. I let them lager at 34 for a month or two, and no help.

Malt Analysis - Cargill Malt Specialty Products Group

There's the analysis (very top). I've been doing alot of research on this, and have found great info from Noonan! But I also wanted to pick you all's brains to get a feeler on this.

Cargill Malt - Malt Team FAQ - Brewing

Right there, the maltster recommends a rest at 106-108 (first Q&A on page) and then moving onto the next rests.

I still have more of this malt left. If I brew say the APA again, should I rest at 106ish, then 120's for the protein/beta, then sacc rest, mash out, etc? The beer the first go around (single infusion at 153) had nice thick creamy head with good retention, medium body well balanced with hop schedule, and finished medium/dry. I was happy the balance and flavor of the beer, just not the clarity!

Thanks :cheers:

Bob 09-15-2008 04:03 AM

Chill haze can be difficult to overcome. Is your haze permanent? Because chill haze is cloudiness which is only observable at about 0degC and which completely re-dissolves if the temperature of the beer rises.

The two most important classes of compounds involved in chill-haze formation are:
  • Proteins
  • Polyphenols
Chill-haze is formed by the combination of "haze-sensitive" proteins with "haze-sensitive" polyphenols, mainly via hydrogen bonding. Haze-sensitive means that certain proteins have a higher tendency to form bonds with polyphenols and vice versa.

There are several ways to attack the problem of chill haze.

First is in the mash; you're already sound on that procedure, so I won't belabor the point beyond advising you to omit the 106degF rest; I think it's pointless. Stick with the 120s rest, though.

Second is in the boil. Boil longer than 60 minutes - I prefer 90. In any case, wait until you see hot break formation before adding your first hops charge. Always use a kettle coagulant such as Irish Moss or (better) Whirlfloc.

Third is in the kettle, post-boil. Chill the bitter wort as rapidly as possible. If you don't have an immersion chiller, get one.

That leaves much of the haze-inducing protein behind in the break materials. Don't forget to leave the break material in the kettle! (IOW, don't rack the break material into your fermenter.)

Fourth is in the fermenter after all fermentation has ceased, before packaging. Crash-chill the beer to damn near freezing over 24-36 hours. That will precipitate yeast. At the same time, dose the beer with a fining agent designed to remove haze-sensitive proteins. There are several suitable products on the market, most of which are synthetic amorphous silica gels which selectively remove proteins that contribute to chill-haze but not those responsible for beer foam or mouthfeel. Good alternatives are gelatin, Isinglass and Polyclar.

At this point, if you still suffer from haze, the only other option of which I am aware is a long period of cold storage (lagering). We're talking weeks, here. You said you tried that, but it's worth rementioning.

Hope this helps!

Bob

INeedANewHobby 09-15-2008 01:38 PM

I always have a 60-70 minute boil, and on the cream ales I did 90 since it had a bit more Pilsen malt in it (avoiding DMS). I use a big immersion chiller, most of the time it crashes from boiling to under 80 in about 5 minutes, and under 70 in another 5 or so. I've always used Irish Moss or SuperMoss, whichever I had handy, in the end of the boil. I leave most all the break material in the kettle by whirlpooling. I have lagered all of these near freezing for 1-2 months (some longer trying to see if they'd clear), and to no avail. I tried gelatin on two of these hazed batches, and no luck there either so far (it left a bit more precipitate at the bottom of the carboy, but the haze was not affected much if at all).

The only thing that I haven't been able to rule out is the malt profile/analysis. For those familiar with it, check out the proteins!

Thanks for the reply. Keep 'em coming!

Nablis 09-15-2008 11:07 PM

I was just reading your thread and noticed you are in Lubbock, awesome.

I assume you got the grains from Triple J. How much was the bag?

Sorry, can't help with your problem just wanted to say whats up to a Fellow Lubbock Home brewer

INeedANewHobby 09-15-2008 11:31 PM

Yes, I'm actually the President of the local homebrew club here. Check us out sometime at Ale-ian Society :: Homebrew Club of Lubbock, Texas :)

I got it from TripleJ, and it was inexpensive! We do a group buy every couple months as a membership perk in the club!

Ecnerwal 09-16-2008 01:46 AM

You like the way it it tastes - drink from an opaque mug so you don't have to see the haze. My summer ale (thus far the only beer I make without tons of chocolate malt in it, which tends to overpower any issues of clarity) has lots of chill haze, and it does not concern me, since it doesn't appear to affect the taste, which is what matters, IMHO.

INeedANewHobby 09-16-2008 02:31 AM

I love the beer, don't get me wrong. But I feel like I'm to a technical level in brewing that this is a very do-able goal of beating this chill haze. And it's not just that, but understanding where the flaw came from, and how to beat it with the right technique (not just some additive in the boil).

Does nobody here read into their malt analysis sheet? Has anyone read Noonan's books? Am I on the wrong forum and need somewhere else that there are more technical brewers (not knocking this forum in any way, I'm just really surprised there haven't been any other replies to help)?

Nablis 09-16-2008 03:05 AM

I would recommend emailing brewstrong@thebrewingnetwork.com and john Palmer could probably answer your question or email him directly from his website howtobrew.com

I would like to check out the home brew club

Bob 09-16-2008 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INeedANewHobby (Post 852571)
I love the beer, don't get me wrong. But I feel like I'm to a technical level in brewing that this is a very do-able goal of beating this chill haze. And it's not just that, but understanding where the flaw came from, and how to beat it with the right technique (not just some additive in the boil).

Does nobody here read into their malt analysis sheet? Has anyone read Noonan's books? Am I on the wrong forum and need somewhere else that there are more technical brewers (not knocking this forum in any way, I'm just really surprised there haven't been any other replies to help)?

Dude. Haze formation is a very complex problem. The science involved is complex. I posted pretty much everything a homebrewer can effectively impact, and you respond by saying you've tried all that. Really, what more do you expect? If I were reading by this thread, I'd say, "Huh," and move on. So untwist your knickers and let's get back to work.

The only other thing I can think of is HSA. Do you have stability problems other than haze? See, the probability of haze formation skyrockets with oxidation. Oxidation of melanoidins causes in a lower quantity of stable colloids. Unstable colloids promote chill haze and permanent haze in beer. Conversely, the presence of stable colloids inhibits chill haze.

Research has shown that darker beers are inherently more stable and clear. De Clerk attributed this to the presence of large amounts of melanoidins found in darker grains. Melanoidins enhance the stability of colloids and help prevent haze formation. Thus Ecnerwal's successful clarity with his ales containing a high proportion of roasted grains.

Melanoidins don't just come from roasted grains, however. They come from Maillard reactions in the mash. So if you're doing a lot of splashing in the mash tun, that might have an effect on colloidial stability, and thus haze precursor formation.

I think that's a long shot, though. It takes quite a lot of work and/or stupidity for homebrewers to suffer from HSA. From what you're saying, I don't think you're doing that stuff.

Your malt analysis is going to tell you what you already know - you've got a certain amount of haze precursors in your malt. If the maltster advises a rest at certain temperatures, try it. It can't hurt.

I re-read the links you gave in your OP and found the original problem: You and purchased the most challenging malt in their lineup, having picked the malt with higher levels of protein than six-row and Pils! No wonder you're having haze problems! You have exhausted all of the options I can imagine. I don't know what to advise, other than trying that low-temperature rest. If that fails, get another base malt for pale beers and save the Schreier for darker beers.

Cheers,

Bob

elkdog 09-16-2008 11:35 AM

^^^ awesome.


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