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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Let's Partyyyy(gyle) that is!!!! Pumpkin Porter AND Ale from one mash!?!
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Old 08-04-2008, 12:47 AM   #1
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Default Let's Partyyyy(gyle) that is!!!! Pumpkin Porter AND Ale from one mash!?!

This is as of now purely conjecture....But I'm looking at the calendar, and despite the fact that it is 90 degrees out, and there are some things I want to brew now...In a scant 2 months it will be pumpkin beer time.

So if I want it, I gotta brew it...but the trouble is I don't know just WHAT kind of pumpkin beer I want come October. Will I want a pumpkin ale, or a pumpkin porter?

While I was washing dishes I was thinking about how to have the best of both worlds...A little bit o pumpkin porter and a little bit o pumpkin ale... and I know that I really don't want to have 5 gallons of each taking up space in my little loft...

So the question begs, just how do come up with a case of each, yet not have to dedicate 2 stovetop AG brewing sessions to achieving this.

The idea of doing it as a partyguile comes to mind....Mashing a batch of really strong porter...Draining off the first 3 or 3.5 gallon runnings as a 2.5 gallon batch of pumpkin porter...then sparging, and letting the second runnings be an very complex amber ale.

Of course to do this, the pumpkin would go in with the grain....

Now I haven't run any numbers yet, or even put any recipes together, but historically a Stout or Porter was the first running and then the brewer would pull off two more batches out of the mash, with the third one being a "table beer" that even kids would drink...So, except for the pumpkin and spices this really isn't something new..

The biggest drawback I can see, besides totally screwing everything up, is that even weaker, the flavor grainbill of the porter would still overpower the amber ale...but I could be wrong.

One option I thought of would be to work in some xldme into the amber, not so much as to raise the abv, but to hopefully mellow out some of the roastiness from the grains...

Another option that occurred to me would be to mash for an amber ale (if I use my haus amber as a base it would simply be 2-row and crystal 60) then for the FIRST runnings simply steep whatever darker/more roasty grains I would want into that for the porter.

That way the second beer, the amber, would be "clean," would just be 2-row, crystal 60, pumpkin, spices and hops...

I'm figuring I'd need a pretty high amount of pumpkin to stand up in the porter, and yet not disappear come time for the amber. Obviously I could always add more to the boil for both beers...

So any practical insight, ideas, recipes, advice, or dissuasion from you who have experience in both partyguile and pumpkin ales...

I'm not to far off the deep end, am I?



Edit, 2011

I though you should see the recipe, if you stumble upon the thread. I just discovered a 3 year old bottle and it is frekin amazing.

Partigyle Base

Est Original Gravity: 1.068 SG

Amount Item Type % or IBU
11 lbs oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 70.97 %
1 lbs 8 oz Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) Grain 9.68 %
1 lbs 8 oz Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 9.68 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %

Pumpkin Porter
(First Runnings)

Calculated as 60% of the original grainbill

2.5 gallon batch

(equivalent to)

Amount Item Type % or IBU
5 lbs 6.8 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 70.97 %
11.8 oz Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) Grain 9.68 %
11.8 oz Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 9.68 %
3.9 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %
3.9 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %
3.9 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %

(Hops)
0.75 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 21.4 IBU
0.25 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 3.2 IBU

(Pumpkin/Spices)
0.25 tsp Ground Allspice (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.25 tsp Ground Ginger (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.25 tsp Ground Nutmeg (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.50 tsp Ground Cinnamon (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
3.75 lb Canned Pumpkin (Boil 15.0 min) Misc

Est Original Gravity: 1.081 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.021 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.90 %
Bitterness: 24.6 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 30.1 SRM

Pumpkin "Amber Ale"
(Second Runnings)

Calculated as 40% of Grainbill

2.5 Gallons

(Equivalent to)

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4 lbs 4.4 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 85.06 %
4.0 oz Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) Grain 4.98 %
4.0 oz Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4.98 %
1.3 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 1.66 %
1.3 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 1.66 %
1.3 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.66 %

(Hops)
0.61 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 21.4 IBU
0.20 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 3.2 IBU

(Pumpkin Spices Not Calculated Yet)
0.25 tsp Ground Allspice (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.25 tsp Ground Ginger (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.25 tsp Ground Nutmeg (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.50 tsp Ground Cinnamon (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
3.75 lb Canned Pumpkin (Boil 15.0 min) Misc

Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 %
Bitterness: 24.6 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 15.0 SRM

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Old 08-04-2008, 12:57 AM   #2
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You might have to do this the other way around, but you could mash without the roasted grains first, get your ale, and then add roasted grains to your mash tun when you batch in for the second runnings. Granted, then your dark beer would be of lower gravity than your lighter colored beer, but you can always fix that by adding *ME or by sparging a lot and boiling it down for long time.

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Old 08-04-2008, 01:40 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Moonpile View Post
You might have to do this the other way around, but you could mash without the roasted grains first, get your ale, and then add roasted grains to your mash tun when you batch in for the second runnings. Granted, then your dark beer would be of lower gravity than your lighter colored beer, but you can always fix that by adding *ME or by sparging a lot and boiling it down for long time.
Hmmm...

If I did that, and had the mash tun open to add the grains, then conceivably couldn't I also add a few more pounds of 2-row alongside the roasted grains to bump up the gravity?

And how the heck would I figure out how much more base malt to add?...Would there be some way to calculate how much the next runnings (say another 3.5 gallons in the sparge) would be based on the preboil gravity of the first runnings? Or would I add my second batch of water, then my roasted grains and maybe take a reading from the vorloff?
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:50 PM   #4
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The trouble with having brilliant "ideas" that I need help with on a Suday afternoon i that there are very few of the more experienced brewers on, and the thread sinks like a stone come Monday morning.


*Shameless thread bumping action.*

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Old 08-04-2008, 03:31 PM   #5
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Never done this, but theoretically what do you think?

How about this make a high gravity light ale with some crystal 60, and steep some dark chocolate malt in the first runnings. Get a grain bag and toss it in the pot and just drain your 3 gallons of wort right on top of it. If you are sparging at 10 minutes per gallon, the grain will get 30 minutes of steeping time. Additionally, if you don't mash out the enzymes will still be active and help convert some of your steeping grain.

Then do your mash out and your second runnings and make your pumpkin ale.

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Old 08-04-2008, 04:28 PM   #6
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Never done this, but theoretically what do you think?

How about this make a high gravity light ale with some crystal 60, and steep some dark chocolate malt in the first runnings. Get a grain bag and toss it in the pot and just drain your 3 gallons of wort right on top of it. If you are sparging at 10 minutes per gallon, the grain will get 30 minutes of steeping time. Additionally, if you don't mash out the enzymes will still be active and help convert some of your steeping grain.

Then do your mash out and your second runnings and make your pumpkin ale.
That's kinda of what I'm thinking. Is there anyway I can calculate this using beersmith?
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Old 08-04-2008, 04:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
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That's kinda of what I'm thinking. Is there anyway I can calculate this using beersmith?
I wish beersmith would calculate this out, but it just doesn't yet. When I did a parti-gyle I entered one recipe that was the base so I could figure out temps and volumes, then I duped the recipe to each of the specific beers. I never really messed with the grain amounts in the beer specific recipes so all my calculations are off, I just wanted a place to keep track of my hop schedule.

I assumed my efficiency would be terrible, but it worked out to be about 75% and I ended up with about a gallon and a half of extra wort. Next time I hope I'll be able to better predict.

Perhaps my numbers will help you figure out yours.

32.75lbs of grain (30lbs base, 2.75lbs specialty)
9 gallons collected in first runnings with SG of 1.091 (OG 1.109 @ 6 gal)
7 gallons collected in second running with SG of 1.035 (OG 1.043 @ 5.75 gal)
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Old 08-04-2008, 04:54 PM   #8
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I wish beersmith would calculate this out, but it just doesn't yet. When I did a parti-gyle I entered one recipe that was the base so I could figure out temps and volumes, then I duped the recipe to each of the specific beers. I never really messed with the grain amounts in the beer specific recipes so all my calculations are off, I just wanted a place to keep track of my hop schedule.

I assumed my efficiency would be terrible, but it worked out to be about 75% and I ended up with about a gallon and a half of extra wort. Next time I hope I'll be able to better predict.

Perhaps my numbers will help you figure out yours.

32.75lbs of grain (30lbs base, 2.75lbs specialty)
9 gallons collected in first runnings with SG of 1.091 (OG 1.109 @ 6 gal)
7 gallons collected in second running with SG of 1.035 (OG 1.043 @ 5.75 gal)
Actually these numbers will help hugely when I start playing with numbers...
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Old 08-04-2008, 04:54 PM   #9
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Hmmm...

If I did that, and had the mash tun open to add the grains, then conceivably couldn't I also add a few more pounds of 2-row alongside the roasted grains to bump up the gravity?

And how the heck would I figure out how much more base malt to add?...Would there be some way to calculate how much the next runnings (say another 3.5 gallons in the sparge) would be based on the preboil gravity of the first runnings? Or would I add my second batch of water, then my roasted grains and maybe take a reading from the vorloff?
I'm not really sure if the 2-row you added would do a whole lot. Your original enzymes would all be denatured, and if they weren't then the activity would still be going on that whole time of your extra mashing and you'd have a super fermentable wort.

One thing you could try would be to have an additional mash going on (in a kitchen pot or something) with your few extra pounds of base malt and your dark grains in. When your 1st runnings are drained before you add your sparge water add this 2nd mash to your 1st mash. I suppose this could complicate your calculations a bit since you'll need to use less sparge water due to that extra water from the 2nd mash.
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Old 08-04-2008, 04:59 PM   #10
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Ok, so here's my thoughts on this. I've always been a fan of the "one mash two beers" concept, and have looked into it a bit, so I may not have practical experience, but I have a bit of theoretical experience. I think the way to go on this is to make your porter, but set your efficacy pretty low (say, 60 or so) as you're only going to be using the first runnings, which also means it's kinda hard to guess your OG, etc. to remedy this, use a very flexible recipe that you don't mind having a variable OG, also, very short boil, as the first runnings are pretty strong already, and I don't think you're going for a pumpkin barleywine sort of OG that would result in boiling off a bunch of water from a strong pre-boil wort.

keep in mind that usually the second runnings that are created from a mash are quite weaker, and traditionally a "small beer" created from the second runnings were around 2-3% however, one would usually make a far greater volume of small beer than strong beer, so I suppose a long vigorous boil period would bring the OG up to perhaps a nice and complex mild. Perhaps an e-mail to the brewers at Anchor would be worth it, as they are about the only brewery I can think of off the top of my head that commercially makes a small beer in this way, using the second runnings from their barlywine, perhaps they can throw you a bone or lead you down the path better than I can.

Overall, I love the concept of this project, and weather you go ahead with it would really be a matter of your style of brewing, if you love to improvise, and sort of brew "off-the-cuff" then this could be a very fun project, on the other hand, if you're more love everything happening perfectly as planned, and don't like surprises or having to tweak a recipe as you're brewing it, then this could possibly be much more of a headache than it's worth.

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