Help with No Sparge Efficiency

jkarp said:

If I were you I'd pull a pre-boil gravity reading next batch. That'll be a good starting indication of where you're loosing efficiency.

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I did that on my current batch, it came in at 1.041, Beersmith estimated it at 1.045 I think. That was setting brewhouse efficiency at 65%. Thanks for giving me some things to try. I just want to make good beer.

Tundra 05,

I am reading with interest. I got my March Pump last week and will be setting up a system similar to yours. I am going to try and get some brews in next week and plan on trying constant recirc as well as mashing, then recircing. I've learned a few things from some of the posts on here. Keep going, I am interested in this process as well.

tundra05 said:

I did that on my current batch, it came in at 1.041, Beersmith estimated it at 1.045 I think. That was setting brewhouse efficiency at 65%. Thanks for giving me some things to try. I just want to make good beer.

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I should've read your OP closer - I missed that you posted pre-boil.

11.76lbs * 37ppg / 8.3 gal = 52 and you got 41 which means you got 79% conversion of your grist. A better grain crush and longer mash should be able to bring that number up a good bit.

You also mentioned equipment/trub and cooling losses earlier. Did you calculate them into your efficiency (as in a full brewhouse number)? If so you may not be as far off as you think. Most of us only worry about efficiency into the kettle. That's what my 75% max no-sparge number was...

jkarp said:

11.76lbs * 37ppg / 8.3 gal = 52 and you got 41 which means you got 79% conversion of your grist. A better grain crush and longer mash should be able to bring that number up a good bit.

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Yes, I'm working on the crush, I have a Corona knock-off and I'm kinda afraid of shredding grain husks too much. As for the mash, I will definitely mash longer and check for conversion with an iodine test.

You also mentioned equipment/trub and cooling losses earlier. Did you calculate them into your efficiency (as in a full brewhouse number)? If so you may not be as far off as you think. Most of us only worry about efficiency into the kettle. That's what my 75% max no-sparge number was...

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I don't know right now, but I think they were calculated in. The number I came up with in Beersmith was a total brewhouse number. I was kinda unclear about the different measures of efficiency, thanks for clearing that up. I'll make sure I check that in the program when I get a chance. Maybe all is not lost afterall:rockin:

Bullbythehorns said:

Tundra 05,

I am reading with interest. I got my March Pump last week and will be setting up a system similar to yours. I am going to try and get some brews in next week and plan on trying constant recirc as well as mashing, then recircing. I've learned a few things from some of the posts on here. Keep going, I am interested in this process as well.

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Sounds good. I guess we can learn together. I'm learning alot on this process. I'm a noob, but if I can help you out in any way, don't hesitate to holler. I just racked my 1st AG, a Nut Brown Ale, into the keg today. It tastes really good. Should be awesome when it's carbed. And, I think they fixed the Nottingham issue, this batch was crystal clear out of the fermenter and the yeast cake was just that, a cake. Very vigorous fermentation for 4 days, then just stopped. I was worried until I took a FG. I will be using this yeast again.

JK, you still there? Just looked at my efficiency calcs. in Beersmith. Looks like I was shooting for 6.42 gals into the BK, and ended up with 6.3. I kinda thought my boil-off was higher with this keggle. Anyway the efficiency to BK was about 62%. I can live with that for my 2d AG batch ever. But I will be adjusting as I go. Thanks for all the help.

Bullbythehorns said:

Tundra 05,

I am reading with interest. I got my March Pump last week and will be setting up a system similar to yours. I am going to try and get some brews in next week and plan on trying constant recirc as well as mashing, then recircing. I've learned a few things from some of the posts on here. Keep going, I am interested in this process as well.

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I'm also following closely, guys. I just finished building a two-vessel system inspired heavily by JKarp's. I'm trying to fully understand the advantages / disadvantages of no-sparge vs. continuing to batch sparge as I have done for years.

Welcome to the club. Lots of good stuff here on no-sparge..... and other things

JK, you're still my boy!

PS

I love my CB20.

tundra05 said:

Yes, I'm working on the crush, I have a Corona knock-off and I'm kinda afraid of shredding grain husks too much. As for the mash, I will definitely mash longer and check for conversion with an iodine test.

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Have you tried conditioning your malt first? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Malt_Conditioning It should help with any tearing. Also, have you checked your mash ph? Getting near 100% conversion is important in no-sparge, as that's where all your sugars come from.

Sockmonkey said:

I'm trying to fully understand the advantages / disadvantages of no-sparge vs. continuing to batch sparge as I have done for years.

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I'm lazy Also, I get 80% efficiency with no-sparge, about the same I got when I batch sparged. Also, it was something different to try and I got hooked.

bakins said:

Have you tried conditioning your malt first? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Malt_Conditioning It should help with any tearing. Also, have you checked your mash ph? Getting near 100% conversion is important in no-sparge, as that's where all your sugars come from.

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No, but funny you should ask. I asked this question early on, but it got lost in the maze of questions I posted about the process. I want to try this next time I crush. How long do you let the grain set after conditioning? It seems like that is quite variable. I'm also going to do an iodine test next time. I'm also lazy, but I'm slowly realizing that there are some corners you can't cut!

This has been a very intersting thread, the no sparge and CRDFM methods definitely fly in the face of general wisdom. So, to the OP....can you tell us more about the beer you made? I mean, in the end, it's all about the product...if the process suits you better and saves you time/money, then so be it. I love equipment and DIY, but no matter what kind of complicated gizmos I'm using, I (and everyone else) still judge my skills as a brewer based on the quality of beer I make. It's lonely trying to choke down a batch of your homebrew that no one else will drink!

tundra05 said:

JK, you still there? Just looked at my efficiency calcs. in Beersmith. Looks like I was shooting for 6.42 gals into the BK, and ended up with 6.3. I kinda thought my boil-off was higher with this keggle. Anyway the efficiency to BK was about 62%. I can live with that for my 2d AG batch ever. But I will be adjusting as I go. Thanks for all the help.

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All your numbers pretty much jive with my CB20 calculator. I think you tweak your crush a bit and you'll be up in the 70s no problem.

Avg ppg 37.000points
Batch size 5.400gal
Evaporation 0.940gal/hr
Absorption 0.120gal/lb
Deadloss 0.550gal
Boil time 1.000hrs
Grist 11.760lbs
Mash 1.500qt/lb
Gravity 1.049

Tot sys vol 8.301gal
Strike vol 4.410gal
Pre-boil vol 6.340gal
Est OG 1.062
Est Eff 76.4%
Act Eff 60.8%

HarkinBanks said:

I love my CB20.

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Glad to hear it! Finally getting around to my Winter stout this weekend on mine. My best friend from Amsterdam is coming in in a couple weeks, bringing me a number of fresh bottles to harvest from. I'll be all set to swing into Belgian mode come spring.

jkarp said:

Glad to hear it! Finally getting around to my Winter stout this weekend on mine. My best friend from Amsterdam is coming in in a couple weeks, bringing me a number of fresh bottles to harvest from. I'll be all set to swing into Belgian mode come spring.

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I can finally lift a carboy again so I am firing up the CB20 twice next week with my sister. Brewing up an Alpha King clone to give out when my new baby boy arrives in February. Since my sister is a Russian River worshiper, she is going to take the lead on a Pliny clone. I can't wait.

jkarp said:

All your numbers pretty much jive with my CB20 calculator. I think you tweak your crush a bit and you'll be up in the 70s no problem.

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Thanks. It's alway nice to get "validated". Merry Christmas.

ScubaSteve said:

This has been a very intersting thread, the no sparge and CRDFM methods definitely fly in the face of general wisdom. So, to the OP....can you tell us more about the beer you made? I mean, in the end, it's all about the product...if the process suits you better and saves you time/money, then so be it. I love equipment and DIY, but no matter what kind of complicated gizmos I'm using, I (and everyone else) still judge my skills as a brewer based on the quality of beer I make. It's lonely trying to choke down a batch of your homebrew that no one else will drink!

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Well, I should be able to tell you more about the beer in about 2 weeks, as I just kegged it. What I can say, is it is probably one of the best beers, out of 9 batches, I've tasted out of the primary. I know that's not a huge sample size, and this was my first AG. I think it's going to be really fine once carbonated. It's a simple nut brown ale. And the process, although more steps were involved, was really not that bad.

I've had good comments on all of my previous extract batches, but I could tell there was much room for improvement. I agree, I think the DIY aspect of this hobby is nearly as appealling as the brewing (but not so much the consuming). I really like AG brewing, it's kinda like cooking with all fresh ingredients, from scratch. I'm hoping the quality of my beers improves. And, by the by, what is "CRDFM"? Merry Christmas.

tundra05 said:

And, by the by, what is "CRDFM"? Merry Christmas.

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Constant Recirculation Direct Fired Mash

OKTIAN - Ok, Thanks. I'm A Noob.

tundra05 said:

I want to try this next time I crush. How long do you let the grain set after conditioning?

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10 minutes or so. I mix the water with my grains, measure my salts, then crush while my strike water is heating. I mostly condition because it cuts down on dust.

tundra05
If you want to be able to step mash, and that was what you were talking about in the beginning! You want to make a proper manifold for that rectangular shaped cooler you are using. It will decrease the time it take between steps you will also make sure the entire grainbed is the same temps while stepping this way. You can always e-mail John Palmer if you have any doubts of the validity of my posts.

If you want to increase your efficiency and not have to stir at each step you difinitely need a different manifold.

If you are just heating the strike water using the pump. Then you dough-in, stir real well, rest, then pump into the kettle after conversion.. then that is a different subject

but if you are using an efficient recirculating mash system, you need to build a manifold like JJ illustrated in the fluid dynamics article.

I also hope that you understand that on the program brewing strong they just skimmed the surface of lautering in that episode and didn't cover the usage of pump systems. Good enough information for getting the jist of the different types of sparging for the noobs.

OLDBREW said:

tundra05
If you are just heating the strike water using the pump. Then you dough-in, stir real well, rest, then pump into the kettle after conversion.. then that is a different subject

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Thanks. It is more like this....heating strike water in kettle, pump to MLT, recirculate then drain into BK. Next batch I will be doing a 60 minute rest before recirculation. I don't know where I'll end up as far as brewing processes just yet. I have an additonal sanke that I may even turn into a proper HLT...just don't know yet. Thanks for the input.

Damn, I thought we'd shook the noob troll in this thread...

tundra05 said:

Well, I should be able to tell you more about the beer in about 2 weeks, as I just kegged it. What I can say, is it is probably one of the best beers, out of 9 batches, I've tasted out of the primary. I know that's not a huge sample size, and this was my first AG. I think it's going to be really fine once carbonated. It's a simple nut brown ale. And the process, although more steps were involved, was really not that bad.

I've had good comments on all of my previous extract batches, but I could tell there was much room for improvement. I agree, I think the DIY aspect of this hobby is nearly as appealling as the brewing (but not so much the consuming). I really like AG brewing, it's kinda like cooking with all fresh ingredients, from scratch. I'm hoping the quality of my beers improves. And, by the by, what is "CRDFM"? Merry Christmas.

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I think the quality of your beer will be the ultimate proof that this method works. If you really need a more compact system, then efficiency is less important. It really is just a number! CRDFM stands for "Continuous Recirculation Direct Fire Method" It's what Lonnie used in his Brutus 2.0. You're not direct firing, but you are continuously recirculating. Cheers!

Scuba Steve,
It is just a take off of what we called "RMS" (recirculating mash system).
The mashtun was fitted with an elevated full false bottom and direct heat was used on the MT as the pump kept recirculating the liquor back over the grainbed (all one vessel). You then drained it into the boiler.
The downfall of direct heat systems was the chance of scorching, denaturing enzymes prematurely, carmelization, or color problems when trying to brew a very pale style brew.

By using indirect heat through a heat exchange coil in a water bath, allowed you to control the problems that came from directly heating the liquor.

I used to direct fire my MLT on my old wooden single tier. Just like the HD RIMS element "controversy", I believe that there is little supporting evidence that you will scorch your wort when direct firing if you use care. But, out of paranoia and laziness, I eventually got away from step mashing and just let my MLT do it's thing. Whatever temp the mash was at when it came time to transfer, so be it....I frequently brew IPA's, so ending with a low mash temp (say, 148F) was acceptable.

Lonnie's CRDFM also describes recircing your full boil volume between the kettle and MLT....which is a whole 'nother discussion regarding efficiency

Digging up this skeleton again. I have made major changes to my system. I switched out the cooler MLT with a bottom-drain sanke MLT with a false bottom. I also added a RIMS tube from Derrin (very nice!) with PID control. I currently have zero deadspace in the MLT, channeling is not an issue (if it ever was), and I have a new Monster Mill that I leave on the factory (.045) setting.



I think I am getting a very good crush, with hardly any whole kernels; mostly grits, and some flour. I'm afraid of crushing any smaller for fear of shredding husks and stuck mashes.

I'm still not able to break through the 62%, and very, very rarely 65% efficiency ceiling. In fact, my last brew came in at 60.5% into the boiler. The only thing I can possibly think that would continue to be problematic would be the age of the grain (less than 6 months), or enzyme dilution due to a thin mash. I've been doughing in with approximately 2.38 qts./lbs.

I have calibrated all my thermometers, and check the mash pH with a meter. This wort measured 5.4 after the mash. I've also done about 3 iodine tests after a one-hour mash and they all indicated conversion. I omit this step now.

I like the simplicity of no-sparge, and the stable pH issues. But I'm just not seeing the efficiency that others are reporting. This is beginning to cost more in extra grain than I expected. I don't think it's system variables either. Any ideas?