Help with new all grain setup

I've only done two successful extract/specialty grain brews, but I'm already looking to jump into all grain. I've been researching the all grain process quite a bit... maybe too much..... on the threads and in books. Now I feel like I'm on overload with the info and I'm having trouble making a decision on which equipment to get.

Here is what I already know:
1. I want to batch sparge. Fly sparging looks cool with the sparge arm and all, but I think batch sparging is for me.

2. I want to use a converted cooler as my MLT. I'm trying to decide between a round 10 gallon Rubermaid beverage cooler and a rectangular Coleman Xtreme 52 quart cooler.

3. I'll start off with 5 gallon batches, but want the flexibility to move to 10 gallons when ready. The main reasons I'm starting with 5 gallon batches is that I have an 11 gallon BK and a small temprature controlled fridge that will only hold one fermentation bucket or carbouy. I don't have the funds for a larger kettle and fermentation chamber right now.

4. I do not want to use pumps, so everything will be gravity fed and manually transfered.

5. I have one burner and one kettle. I'm considering a second if necessary.

So here are my questions:

1. Which shape cooler is better for batch sparging? Round or rectangular? I realize for batch sparging, the shape is not as important, but I'm wondering if one is easier to use than the other for the batch sparge method. For example, is it easier to stir the grain in a rectangular cooler? Is it difficult to thouroughly stir grains in a round cooler because of the deeper grain bed? Does one hold temps better than the other? Durability? Convenience?

2. In what ways does a HLT improve the batch sparge process? I've seen the "one burner/ one kettle" method where you drain your first runnings into a bottling bucket and then add it to your second runnings in the kettle. However, is there a down side to this method other than more labor? Can it negatively affect the wort? I know oxygenation of the wort is bad after fermentation, but what about pre-boil oxygenation?

3. How well does a converted cooler HLT hold strike water temperatures? Again, is a round cooler or rectangular better for this purpose?

4. Lots of brewers seem to like the SS braid manifold for batch sparging because stuck sparges are rare. I've seen it used regularly in rectangular coolers, but is it just as effective in round coolers? Would a custom made manifold be better? (I've read palmers section on manifolds in my "How to Brew" book). I'm not terribly concerned with the highest efficiency possible as long as I'm regularly reaching 75% or more.

That's all I've got for now. Thanks in advance for any replies.

I've been doing A LOT of research like you in the past few weeks as I am moving to AG as well. I've just googles a lot of info regarding mash tuns. Here's a link to a thread that might help a little with regards to which way you'll construct your mash tun. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/braided-hose-manifold-better-116236/
I've read in a few places that if you batch sparge, you might find the SS braid to be a better option; however, a lot of places also say that it is overall just based on preference. Same for the cooler shape. I've seen ton of pics of either round, rectangular, or cube shaped coolers being used. I really haven't seen much debate, again, it's more of a preference or what's the best available to you. I have seen that a lot of people like the round orange ones available at home depot and the Coleman extreme models ( at least I believe it's Coleman).

Hope I helped a little, I know I'm no expert and I'm looking into this new adventure for me too. Just wanted to share some research. Good luck

I was in a similar situation that you are in. Did 3 extract/specialty grain batches and jumped into all grain. I used a 52 qt Coleman Extreme and made a cpvc manifold. I have to say that it works great (I batch sparge). I consistently get 75-80% efficiency.

Good luck.

I recently made the jump to all-grain, so I don't have the most in depth knowledge, but I made my MLT out of the home depot 10 gal Rubbermaid and love it. Holds heat incredibly well. I did a 90 min mash last week and held 154-152. I took the idea from the sticky in this forum for the construction. I used stainless braid, but constructed mine in a circular ring vs just one piece straight in the bottom.

If you're looking to do 10 gals of "big beers" you may want to go the Coleman route, but I'm sure some guys on here will tell you their experiences with the Rubbermaid and if I works or not. The Rubbermaid is pretty awesome for batch sparging, I've yet to encounter a stuck Sparge, and I'm not the most skilled.

Good luck with your choices! Either way they will be good cos all grain is awesome!

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Many of the answers to your questions are preferences, not correct or incorrect, in my opinion. Here are my answers:

1. I use a round cooler, don't have any problems with stirring, holding the temperature, or durability.

2. I use one burner, with a brew kettle and another 5 gallon pot, pretty efficiently. When you boil the wort, you will drive off the oxygen, that's why you need to worry about adding oxygen after the boil and before fermentation begins.

3. I seldom lose more than a degree over the course of the mash in my round cooler mash tun. If you are concerned or have problems, you can always throw a blanket over it.

4. I use a braid (which I bought, rather than make) and its been fine, no problems.

Good luck,

Jim

2centswort said:

I was in a similar situation that you are in. Did 3 extract/specialty grain batches and jumped into all grain. I used a 52 qt Coleman Extreme and made a cpvc manifold. I have to say that it works great (I batch sparge). I consistently get 75-80% efficiency.

Good luck.

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This is me also except with a 62 qt. and I did a few more extract and PM's. I've used this tun for only 2 batches but it works well and the cpvc manifold slips out for cleaning or for putting the cooler back together.

Like Pappers said, it's not a right or wrong issue.

AG is very satisfying, and you can taste the difference...smoother with no extract twang...I brew 5G batches using 2 48Q Rubbermaid coolers, and 2 1000W bucket heaters.

I do the boil outside on the cooker (much faster than electric)...ferment in Better bottles...

kegging is fun as well.

If you're thinking to go to 10 gallon batches eventually, you probably want to go to a bigger mash tun than 10 gallons. Watch the latest episode of brewingtv where they make a Surly Bender clone. You'll see that his 5 gallon cooler for a 5 gallon batch is full to the top.

I think the biggest reason people use other coolers than the round ones is cost. The round ones cost typically at least twice as much. I use a 60qt Igloo Cube and it works great. It cost $27 at Sam's club. A ten gallon round igloo or rubbermaid cooler typically runs about $70.

For your purposes, braid or manifold shouldn't matter.

Go with the 10 gal if u go round ,i wish i had!I switched from ss braid to false bottom recently and one thing ive noticed is u seem to get more particulate with fb .I do a hybrid sparge where i slowly pour a pitcher over a pie plate when i sparge and my eff went up a couple of points?Good luck going AG its very satisfying .

MenkeMoose said:

I think the biggest reason people use other coolers than the round ones is cost. The round ones cost typically at least twice as much. I use a 60qt Igloo Cube and it works great. It cost $27 at Sam's club. A ten gallon round igloo or rubbermaid cooler typically runs about $70.

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While this can be true, I think it largely depends on your area, and the timeframe. You can be patient and find some good deals on them online. I bought mine at home depot in Texas, and with my military discount I paid 29 bucks for my 10 gal rubbermaid

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Pappers_ said:

Many of the answers to your questions are preferences, not correct or incorrect, in my opinion. Here are my answers:

2. I use one burner, with a brew kettle and another 5 gallon pot, pretty efficiently. When you boil the wort, you will drive off the oxygen, that's why you need to worry about adding oxygen after the boil and before fermentation begins.

Good luck,

Jim

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Jim: Thanks for the reply. I can see how a second kettle would make the process more efficient. If I do decide to buy another kettle, I would probably considering going to a 15 - 20 gallon to have room for ten gallon batches in the future. However, I'm wondering if I could accomplish the same with a second cooler used for a HLT for now. It would certainly be less expensive.

Edit: I can get a 66 qt Bayou classic SS kettle for $123 shipped... Hmmmmmm.... However, I'm tempted to save up for a blichman with all the bells and whistles.

MenkeMoose said:

If you're thinking to go to 10 gallon batches eventually, you probably want to go to a bigger mash tun than 10 gallons. Watch the latest episode of brewingtv where they make a Surly Bender clone. You'll see that his 5 gallon cooler for a 5 gallon batch is full to the top.

I think the biggest reason people use other coolers than the round ones is cost. The round ones cost typically at least twice as much. I use a 60qt Igloo Cube and it works great. It cost $27 at Sam's club. A ten gallon round igloo or rubbermaid cooler typically runs about $70.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I definitely need to watch that episode. Thanks for the heads-up. I'm pretty sure I would be ok with only 5 gallons of really big beers when I make those. It's my understanding that a 10 gallon MLT is big enough for just about any normal gravity 10 gallon brew.

Cost isn't much of a concern with my two choices of coolers. My local Home Depot sells the 10 gallon Rubbermaid cooler for $39.99. I found a 52 qt. Coleman Xtreme for around $55 at a local Kmart. The funny thing is the 70 qt. coleman xtreme costs less at around $40, but I think its way too big for 5 gallon batches.... which I'll be doing for a while.

Thanks for all the replies.....keep 'em coming guys!

I wouldn't start thinking of 10 gallon batches until you have a collection of tried and true recipes. I make 5 g batches and use 2tuns, a5gal round for regular beers and a 52qt for the biguns. 52is a lot of space for 9 lb of grain thus more heat loss. I've done 23 lb in the 52 before.

Mikethepoolguy said:

I wouldn't start thinking of 10 gallon batches until you have a collection of tried and true recipes. I make 5 g batches and use 2tuns, a5gal round for regular beers and a 52qt for the biguns. 52is a lot of space for 9 lb of grain thus more heat loss. I've done 23 lb in the 52 before.

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That is a good plan. I may actually stick with 5 gallon batches and never go to ten. However, I'm sure lots of guys start out with that kind of thinking... the next thing you know, you want to make ten gallon batches. So, I just want to be prepared. It seems like the consensus on the threads is to go with the bigger cooler (10 gallons vs. 5 gallons) for the times when you want to do bigger beers. I'm concerned about heat loss due to head space as well. However, most seem to report no more than 1 to 2 degrees of heat loss over an hour even with only 5 gallon batch sizes in the larger 10 gal or 52 quart coolers.

You got me thinking now though. Why not have two mash tuns? A 5 gallon MLT for normal and low gravity 5 gallon brews and a 10 gallon for larger gravity 5 gallon brews (and 10 gallon normal gravity in the future). However, if I will only lose a degree or two with the larger mash tun, why not go bigger right off the bat? Does the amount of head space really make a difference with temperature control? Otherwise it seems to make sense to go bigger and save a few bucks.

Why not learn about a "brew in a bag", find out that it takes enough less time and equipment that you can afford to make beer more often, sometimes saving enough time over the traditional mash tun and sparging that you can do two batches in a single day. You can always go bigger and traditional later while enjoying your own all grain brew.

So I think I've decided which cooler to go with for an MLT. I'll experiment with both the braid and a CPVC manifold since they both seem relatively cheap and easy to make.

Only one more thing to decide....

Should I purchase a second cooler to convert to a HLT or go with a second BK to catch my runnings while my other kettle heats the sparge water?

Which method would be the easiest or most efficient?

I already had both coolers so they didnt cost me anything. And I use 2 kettles as you are saying. But I have seen many ways what works best for you is the answer. There will be trial and error.

If you are going to go through the effort to build an MLT make it big enough to substantial 10 gallon batches. I would say at least 52 if not 62 quarts. I think mine is a 60 quart Igloo cube roller. I was able to do 5 gallons when it was the only AG implement I had. Now I can do 12 gallon batches in the 1.080 range with it.

A year ago I built the MLT and batch sparged to the top of my stove. Then i added an insulated bottling bucket to fly sparge.
Next came an electrically operated Keggle.
Then came an HLT
Then came a 3 tier rack.
Next a pump
Then an element for the HLT.
Last step was the thermowell, site guage and temp cotroller for the HLT.

I stated out with the same idea as you, 5 gallons, maybe 10 someday, no pump, minimal fuss. You may not be as obsessive as I in upgrading and improving your system but it makes no sense to me to start with too small an MLT. Each upgrade happened for a reason. At 5 gallons you can keep it simple but at 10 gallons I found I spent a lot of time waiting for water to heat. Moving 20 gallons of near boiling water to the top of the system was dangerous and caused a lot of heat loss.

Once your MLT is done though you can start AG right away and let the rest of the system develop over time. Another note is you do not need a sparge arm to do fly sparging.

Mikethepoolguy said:

I make 5 g batches and use 2tuns, a5gal round for regular beers and a 52qt for the biguns. 52is a lot of space for 9 lb of grain thus more heat loss. I've done 23 lb in the 52 before.

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I have mashed 10 lbs. in a 62 qt. without more than a degree loss. It is a Coleman Extreme if that matters. That was mashing inside the house. Even better, I mashed 14 lbs. CYBI Arrogant Bastard a few weeks ago outside in my garage with the door open at 25* and loss only 1 degree. These are the only 2 batches I've done with this cooler and doing it outside was just a test. I'm a believer in this cooler. FWIW, I preheated both times.

Way
Wasnt' Biguns a magazine Al Bundy used to read?