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Old 07-13-2010, 05:06 AM   #1
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Default Help with grain bill for APA

Doing my 2nd partial mash brew in 2 weeks or so, and am trying to figure out how to balance the maltiness and bitterness, but having immense hop flavor coming through. My last partial mash was an imperial IPA, using pilsner extract, flaked wheat, flaked rye, a small amount of carapils and american 6 row mashed at 150 for 1 hour. It came out quite bitter, with almost no malt character or sweetness to balance the bitterness.

This time I am hoping to get a more balanced flavor, but my total experience with mashing are the grains on the previous recipe, and walking through the store chewing a couple grains of everything.

Here is what i came up with:

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Emerald City Pale Ale #1
Brewer: Klaus Shuler
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: Partial Mash

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.87 gal
Estimated OG: 1.057 SG
Estimated Color: 7.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 42.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item
5 lbs Pilsen DME- Briess
2 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter
1 lbs Biscuit Malt
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine

Boil Hops:
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (15 min) 10.9 IBU
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (10 min) 12.2 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (10 min) 8.0 IBU
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (5 min) 6.7 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (5 min) 4.9 IBU

Hopback Hops:
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (0 min) Hopback -
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (0 min) Hopback -
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] (0 min) Hopback -

Dry Hops:
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (Dry Hop 14 days)
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (Dry Hop 14 days)


6.00 gal Seattle, WA Water
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) 2L starter

Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 4.50 lb
----------------------------
My Mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Step Add 5.63 qt of water at 161.4 F 152.0 F


Is biscuit an OK choice or is this going to be too much of a toasted flavor? Am I even going to notice the 2 lbs of Maris Otter in this, or should I just stick to American Pale malt? Does this look like it may be fairly well balanced, not too malty and not too bitter? Also I will probably add some burton water salts, I think, as Seattle's water is so close to bottled or distilled water. Any recommendations on how much to add? Furthermore Amarillo and Simcoe to me are both fantastic, but most of the time I see Amarillo it seems to be paired with Centennial. Is that a better pairing?

Klaus

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Old 07-13-2010, 03:29 PM   #2
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First off that is way too much biscuit! That stuff is pretty potent. With the MO you're going to get a subtle biscuity, bready flavor anyway. If you really want to accentuate that, I would only add a few oz of biscuit. Maybe 2-4. I would also cut the crystal in half. To me, that recipe looks like it would be ultra sweet and thick (even with the pils dme) with a lot of hop flavor, but not necessarily much bitterness. I've made that beer before and did not enjoy it. I would add a 60 min hop addition if just for some balance. But that's just me, there are plenty of folks on the forum who enjoy an all late-hope pale. Not me.

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Old 07-13-2010, 05:04 PM   #3
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+1 on cutting down the biscuit and crystal.

If you want more malt character and some sweetness, it couldnt hurt to throw in some vienna or munich and mash a little higher as well. You may want to read about balance value since by your numbers you're still on the hoppy-side instead of balanced. http://beercolor.netfirms.com/balance.html

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Old 07-13-2010, 05:53 PM   #4
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My standard APA grain bill (for a 6 gallons batch):
_____ base malt
8oz Victory Malt
8 oz Crystal 60L
8 oz Flaked wheat
Use extract and add as much 2-row as you want for the partial mash and adjust those two to get the OG you want.

I find that the victory and crystal balance well enough to lend some sweetness, but they do not overwhelm the hops. If you want it sweeter, bump the C60 to 12oz. The C60 also provides a sweet flavor that blends well with the other malt flavors. I find that lighter crystal malts add the sweetness but lack the caramel flavor that the 60 has.

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Old 07-13-2010, 06:19 PM   #5
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I think you need at least a 30 min hop addition. A small 60 min addition would be fine too.

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Old 07-13-2010, 06:43 PM   #6
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Default Thanks for the input

Thanks everyone. I appreciate what you guys who have some experience with this stuff have to say-- I had NO IDEA that biscuit was so powerful. From what I read, it sounds just like it just adds a nice toasty bready note to beer. But then again, it is usually followed up by a "goes great in a stout or a brown ale." I would still like to try it, though, so I will add about 1/4 of what I had before. Also, I will add 2 lbs of vienna for more flavor. Is a mix of maris otter and vienna a good idea, or would you just go for one or the other. I remember trying Maris otter in my LHBS and found it tasted better (sort of more "full" than American Pale) but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I can't remember Vienna at all from that tasting, but what I read sounds really wonderful. The carapils I have there really just for head retention.

As for the hop additions, I am not sure why I would need any early hop additions. From what I read, you get a lot more flavor from late additions, and I am getting the necessary IBUs for the style (right near the top edge of both SG and IBUs for the American Pale ale style). My last brew had an early addition and FWH, came out with big aroma but little flavor. If I add a bittering addition, in order to keep within style parameters, then I will have to significantly cut down on later hop additions and then I will worry about flavor losses. Moreover, as I use a plate chiller and it takes a few minutes to drain the kettle, I figure the 15 minute addition is more like a 20 minute addition, etc.


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Emerald City Pale Ale #1
Brewer: Klaus Shuler
Asst Brewer:
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: Partial Mash
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.87 gal
Estimated OG: 1.060 SG
Estimated Color: 6.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 41.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
5 lbs Pilsen DME- Briess (3.0 SRM) 48.78 %
2 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) 19.51 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) 19.51 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) 4.88 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) 4.88 %
4.0 oz Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) 2.44 %


Boiling hops
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (15 min) 10.6 IBU
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (10 min) 11.9 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (10 min) 7.8 IBU
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (5 min) 6.5 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (5 min) 4.7 IBU

Hopback
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (0 min) Hopback
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] (0 min) Hopback
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (0 min) hopback

Dry Hopping
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (Dry Hop 14 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (Dry Hop 14 days) Hops -


6.00 gal Seattle, WA Water
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [Starter Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 5.25 lb
----------------------------
My Mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
40 min Step Add 6.56 qt of water at 161.4 F 152.0 F


Again, thank you all very much. I appreciate all your experience!

Klaus

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Old 07-13-2010, 06:53 PM   #7
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I would use the 60 L, as jacksonbrown said, and perhaps try and throw in some pale 2 row rather than combining so many speciality grains. I recently used Vienna with Biscuit and it did not work out to well - they both contribute similar flavors. Maybe just dial down the Vienna and dial up the 2 row or pilsen...

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