The Great Bottle Opener Giveaway

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Got a problem with my Efficiencies help please!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-08-2009, 01:08 PM   #1
Bowtiebrewery
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Monroe, CT
Posts: 538
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default Got a problem with my Efficiencies help please!

Ok y'all. Saturday I brewed a Barleywine Bigfoot Clone. Problem is that I missed my target Gravity by almost 30 points...
I have a few things that I can account for my missing it but the rest doesnt seem to add up...

I was supposed to end up at 1.111 Instead I ended up at 1.082

Here is the Recipe:

Calculated Brewhouse efficiency was set at 72* so should be SG of 1.111
19lbs 2 row US Pale
2 lb of British Caramel
.25 lbs Carapils
.25 lbs Wheat (I think American)

Mash was low at 149-152* over 90 minutes...
Sparge was 165* for 20 minutes of continuous recirculation over the grains... through the March Pump.

My boil was a little longer than 90 minutes.

My total output from the kettle was close to 5.5 gallons... The recipe was for 5g even...

Even with the extra volume I would calculate I would only gain maybe 5-8 points from that.

Here is what I know is always good...

My crush is excellent... I run my wheat through my JSP Malt mill twice just in case.
Never have had a stuck mash since I switched to a manifold...
Measurement was verified by calibrated hydrometer and Refractometer so I know that I ended up with the correct sg (1.082)

What I don't know...

Water report?? I'm beginning to suspect that this could be the route of my problem.

Please help guys... This is getting really frustrating not being able to hit my target gravities.

__________________
Bowtiebrewery is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2009, 01:57 PM   #2
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 21,822
Liked 899 Times on 600 Posts
Likes Given: 26

Default

You'll need to clarify some things for us. First, how much mash water did you use for your 21.5 pounds of malt?

When you say "Sparge was 165* for 20 minutes of continuous recirculation over the grains... through the March Pump" exactly what do you mean? Did you fly sparge? How much sparge water did you use. Please write out in detail the steps you took after your 90 minute mash.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2009, 02:08 PM   #3
Bowtiebrewery
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Monroe, CT
Posts: 538
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Sorry bout that... Please allow me to clarify...

21.5 LBS X 1.3 = 7 Gal water Output was close to 4.5 gallons
Then sparged with 4.5 gallons of water output was close to 4 gallons Total was 8.5g in the pot...

After the 90 Min mash:

Sparged at 165* 20 minutes... I continuously ran my march pump at full opening output from the mash tun into the pump back into the mash tun over the top of the grains... being careful not to aerate and avoid HSA.


Hope that helps.

__________________
Bowtiebrewery is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2009, 02:22 PM   #4
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 21,822
Liked 899 Times on 600 Posts
Likes Given: 26

Default

Ok, so you drained 4.5 gallons of first runnings. Then you added 4.5 gallons of 165F sparge water and recirculated for 20 minute before you drained it out. Did you stir really well when you added the sparge water or are you relying on the recirculation to mix it up?

If you didn't stir well, that hurt your efficiency. You'd think that the recirculation would throughly mix but it could have been channeling down through the grain and missing a lot of sugar. Stir really well for 3 minute, recirculate for another 3 minutes and drain it. There's no benefit to a 20 minute vorlauf in batch sparging.

Your sparge water temp of 165 also hurt IMHO. It can be at least 185F. Kaiser claims that the sparge temp has no effect on efficiency but I find that I lose 3-5% efficiency if I sparge too cold.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?

Last edited by Bobby_M; 06-08-2009 at 02:25 PM.
Bobby_M is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2009, 02:26 PM   #5
bbrim
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 728
Liked 20 Times on 18 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

The problem is clear. You did not sparge with enough water to hit your usual efficiency. When making a really big beer you have to options. You can sparge the hell out of it and collect 12 gallons, then boil for hours. Or you can bite the bullet adjust your efficiency down to 60-65% add some more grain to hit your numbers and go with your typical size boil. When I brew 10 G batches I use 19-20 lbs grain, then sparge to 13 gallons going into the kettle. I usually hit 78-80%. The beer will still be good, just no quite as strong.

__________________
bbrim is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2009, 02:44 PM   #6
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 21,822
Liked 899 Times on 600 Posts
Likes Given: 26

Default

That is certainly true. Any time I want an OG over 1.090, I set my efficiency 10% lower than normal and plan to boil for 120 minutes. I also set my mash thickness to 2qt/lb and only use first runnings for the big beer. I use the sparge runnings for a smaller beer. That way you're able to hit your big beer gravity and not waste all that remaining sugar.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2009, 02:52 PM   #7
Bowtiebrewery
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Monroe, CT
Posts: 538
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Ah ok thank you...

In response to the Boil time and runnings: I suspect that only using the First runnings would be beneficial in a Big beer and also adjust for 10% lower.

You are correct in assuming about the mixing during sparge... I did not because I assumed that the pump running full boar would do that mixing up by itself... Damn... I'll remember that for next time.

I was thinking also next time I could resort to using DME towards the end of the boil to hit those gravities as a last ditch effort.

Its too bad I didnt make another beer with the runnings... That probably would have been a better option...

So wait you are saying that the 165* temp is also a hurting factor?
I was under the impression that as soon as you sparge with anything over 170* you can extract tannins as well as de-nature the enzymes from converting any further?

__________________
Bowtiebrewery is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2009, 03:56 PM   #8
Malticulous
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: St. George Utah
Posts: 4,026
Liked 48 Times on 39 Posts
Likes Given: 47

Default

If it was 165 in the MLT that is fine, if it's 165 form the HLT it's too cold. Ideally it should be 168 in the MLT. Don't sparge at 185 (as you know.) 180 watter usually gets my tun to 165-168. AFAIK 165 works great.

__________________

Last edited by Malticulous; 06-08-2009 at 04:03 PM.
Malticulous is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2009, 04:18 PM   #9
Bowtiebrewery
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Monroe, CT
Posts: 538
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

yes it was 165* in the MLT not the HLT...

__________________
Bowtiebrewery is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-08-2009, 04:20 PM   #10
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 21,822
Liked 899 Times on 600 Posts
Likes Given: 26

Default

I'm assuming he infused 165F sparge water. If that's the case, the equalized temp was probably in the high 150's. Infusing 185F sparge will get the equalized temp up into at least the mid 160's.

EDIT: OK, my assumption was wrong.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Low PM Efficiencies LoadedFront Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 2 11-03-2009 03:53 AM
Ridiculously low efficiencies, why??? beergutbrew All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 7 09-02-2009 01:19 PM
70 qt Coleman Xtreme & efficiencies illin8 Equipment/Sanitation 2 04-21-2009 06:30 PM
mash efficiencies McCuckerson Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 1 11-22-2008 08:00 PM
High Efficiencies... b767fo All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 5 07-28-2008 01:37 AM