full boil small batch vs partial boil larger batch?

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bfinleyui

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Having a hard time making the decision...

I'm getting ready to do a BIAB for the first time.

I live in an apartment, and my stove wouldn't be able to handle a full boil of five gallons, not to mention that I don't have a pot larger than 5 gallons...

If you were in my position, would you do a full boil for a final volume of 3 gallons, or do a partial boil for the full five?

I know the recipes (particularly hops) would be different, and can use brewsmith to figure the difference, that wouldn't a problem. If it matters, i'd be able to do the full 3 gallon boil sooner (don't have a 6 gallon primary vessel open until Tuesday, but have a 5 gallon bb open now)
 
Nothing wrong with either option. If you've got a fermenter ready for the 3 gal batch, go for that! Once you get a 6 gal fermenter open, just do a late addition of the extract portion of your partial and you don't have to worry about the hops as much. For a year or two I did all my batches as 3 gal boils and partial mashes with half the gravity from grain and half from extract because I was in a similar situation. If you're doing a smaller batch anyways, maybe consider doing a higher gravity beer, something that you don't need to have 5 gals of, but something that you can age for a while and taste over time.
 
I would be aiming for a partial volume boil, trying to get all my gravity from the mash, rather than trying to add extract late in the process...
 
bfinleyui said:
I live in an apartment, and my stove wouldn't be able to handle a full boil of five gallons, not to mention that I don't have a pot larger than 5 gallons...
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It should. Unless you have a weak, electric stovetop. I've vigorously boiled 6 gallons indoors on a standard gas range. An aluminum kettle helps... or if you still can't boil the full volume, you can split it up in two smaller kettles and straddle two burners each.

bfinleyui said:
If you were in my position, would you do a full boil for a final volume of 3 gallons, or do a partial boil for the full five?
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The former is always the better option. Don't dilute your IBUs and general quality of your wort. Topping off is practical for the new brewer, but following that method is a huge factor when it comes to making mediocre beer. Go full volume boil. Better to have 2.5 gallons of excellent beer than 5 gallons of crappy beer. The only downside to brewing up a smaller batch is that you can't rack the smaller volume to a larger secondary. You should keep the beer in the primary with that dense C02 blanket... or if racking is something you need to do, invest in a smaller secondary.
 
bobbrews said:
The former is always the better option. Don't dilute your IBUs and general quality of your wort. Topping off is practical for the new brewer, but following that method is a huge factor for making mediocre beer. Go full volume boil. Better to have 2.5 gallons of excellent beer than 5 gallons of crappy beer.
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Actually I do stovetop all grain batches topped off to 5 gallons quite alot, especially in the winter when I can't get outside to brew, and I've never "dilluted" my ibus whatever the hell that means, nor have I made "lesser quality" wort for that matter either. In fact I've won awards for some of these batches, so I don't know where you've gotten this silly notion that somehow you make crappy beer this way. :rolleyes:

My last three batches were done this way. I've done everything from lightly hopped lagers like my Vienna (Bronze medal, world expo of beers, Frakenmuth Michigan,) to hop bomb IPAs, (honorable mention IPA category Michigan State Fair) this way.....

Quite a lot of folks on here do it, and I can assure you that if we were making dilluted substandard wort, we wouldn't be doing it.

I've posted a tutorial on several occassions.

bfinleyui, really either option is fine. Sometimes you only want 2.5 gallons of beer, other times 5 gallons....Do what works for you, and make the best beer you can, however you want to do it.
 
Full boil smaller batches. It is what I do. But the secondary issue is one I am working through. I normally don't secondary any beer but I am planning a Barleywine right now and I will need to secondary that one. Guess I will be picking up a 3 gal better bottle soon.
 
Revvy said:
Actually I do stovetop all grain batches topped off to 5 gallons quite alot, especially in the winter when I can't get outside to brew, and I've never "dilluted" my ibus whatever the hell that means, nor have I made "lesser quality" wort for that matter either. In fact I've won awards for some of these batches, so I don't know where you've gotten this silly notion that somehow you make crappy beer this way. :rolleyes:

My last three batches were done this way. I've done everything from lightly hopped lagers like my Vienna (Bronze medal, world expo of beers, Frakenmuth Michigan,) to hop bomb IPAs, (honorable mention IPA category Michigan State Fair) this way.....
Click to expand...

Pats you on back and gives you a cookie.
 
Revvy said:
Actually I do stovetop all grain batches topped off to 5 gallons quite alot, especially in the winter when I can't get outside to brew, and I've never "dilluted" my ibus whatever the hell that means, nor have I made "lesser quality" wort for that matter either.
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I think he's saying that when you do a partial boil you need to increase your hop usage in order to end up with a given level of bitterness/flavor/aroma, relative to what you would need to use in a full boil. I've read this elsewhere, although I personally have no experience with it, since I started out with full boils from the get-go. But from what I remember (can't remember where, but I'm sure others know, and there's probably a dozen threads that have already discussed it), the hop utilization is better for full boils, so in order to get the same hop profile with a partial boil you need to use more hops.

This makes intuitive sense to me, since you're essentially watering down your wort with added water after the boil, which would cause the hop profile to be weakened, so you would want it to start out higher. How much of a difference there is, I don't personally know since I've never done partial boils, but my guess is that's what he was referring to.
 
jerrodm said:
I think he's saying that when you do a partial boil you need to increase your hop usage in order to end up with a given level of bitterness/flavor/aroma, relative to what you would need to use in a full boil. I've read this elsewhere, although I personally have no experience with it, since I started out with full boils from the get-go. But from what I remember (can't remember where, but I'm sure others know, and there's probably a dozen threads that have already discussed it), the hop utilization is better for full boils, so in order to get the same hop profile with a partial boil you need to use more hops.

This makes intuitive sense to me, since you're essentially watering down your wort with added water after the boil, which would cause the hop profile to be weakened, so you would want it to start out higher. How much of a difference there is, I don't personally know since I've never done partial boils, but my guess is that's what he was referring to.
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You don't need to defend him, besides, basically he's saying you'll make crappy beer if you attempt it. It's one thing to offer information, it's another thing to offer opinion without stating that it is opinion.

I have found that in this hobby there are MANY ways of doing things, and that when someone is "so sure" that something won't work, he doesn't realize that there are folks who are doing it that way all the time, and it IS working. And used by a lot of people.

A lot of folks just repeat what they've heard, about something, without even experimenting for themselves. And USUALLY those things that folks are so convinced is "that way" like the hop utilization thing turns out to be so miniscule that our tastebuds really couldn't detect it anyway......

My primer covers any so called "dillution" of hops quite simply....As does most brewing software when you're working with dillution....

And the other questions remains, Have either of you ACTUALLY attempted it or are you just playing armchair brewer on this one? It's one thing to do it, and share info for or against it, and it's another thing to venture opinion without even having ever tried it.
 
Thanks. I think I'll try the partial boil, since I'm planning on a session beer that will be consumed a little more rapidly. I'll save the full boil for something a little more experimenty or strange.
 
Revvy said:
You don't need to defend him, besides, basically he's saying you'll make crappy beer if you attempt it. It's one thing to offer information, it's another thing to offer opinion without stating that it is opinion.

I have found that in this hobby there are MANY ways of doing things, and that when someone is "so sure" that something won't work, he doesn't realize that there are folks who are doing it that way all the time, and it IS working. And used by a lot of people.

A lot of folks just repeat what they've heard, about something, without even experimenting for themselves. And USUALLY those things that folks are so convinced is "that way" like the hop utilization thing turns out to be so miniscule that our tastebuds really couldn't detect it anyway......

My primer covers any so called "dillution" of hops quite simply....As does most brewing software when you're working with dillution....

And the other questions remains, Have either of you ACTUALLY attempted it or are you just playing armchair brewer on this one? It's one thing to do it, and share info for or against it, and it's another thing to venture opinion without even having ever tried it.
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Time to get very direct then...

What are we offering here if not opinions based on experience? I've tried both methods many times, and every method in between. I am not arguing that there are many ways of doing things. I know this. But topping off with 2.5 gallons of plain water and 2.5 gallons of concentrated wort does make inferior beer when compared to the same recipe brewed via a full volume boil. Fact... not to mention common sense. A new brewer shouldn't even need to think that hard to discern that.

It's a hack move at worst, and a move based on convenience & practicality at best. It does nothing to better your beer, but certainly effects the final quality. However, if you're satisfied with mediocre, then great. Say so. I still make powdered lemonade this way, but then again I don't really care for squeezing a dozen lemons.

And medals from bogus competetions mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. I don't see the need to boast about it. But in a blind taste test, and based on your full belief in partial boils, I would strip you of your medals. Challenge.
 
bobbrews said:
And medals from bogus competetions mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. I don't see the need to boast about it. But in a blind taste test, I would strip you of your medals. Challenge.
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What's a bogus competition to you? In the Michigan State fair comp I went against over 50 IPAs alone and got number 4. The world expo of beer is now one of the largest comps in Michgan, capped out at 800 seperate entries.

I enter beers, especially experimental beers for feedback since we have several excellent BJCP judges in the Metro Detroit area, some Gran Master level, and many who travel and even judge commercial beers overseas, so I look at it as a good way to PROVE theories, or to see where something fails.

So to me, it's an excellent way to see if something works. And entering batches like that prove that good beer can be made different ways.....

Sounds like you can't handle someone calling you out. I'll ask you again, Have you ACTUALLY ever made a partial boil allgrain beer the way I mention?/ If not all you're doing is venturing an OPINION WITH NO PRACTICAL BASIS IN FACT.....So how is that helpful to someone, especially when OTHER folks prove that IT CAN BE DONE? And you know what they say about opinions

And I'm done with this, I don't argue with idiots.......
 
I can tell you one thing, if I drank 50 IPAs back to back, my palate would be drained at discerning subtle nuances and particular flavors... and I'm a professional chef.

I'm talking about one beer, same recipe, two different brewers, one who hacks it and one who does it justice... blind taste test to see which is better. Challenge.

I'm sure you're a good guy, but we just see things from opposite ends of the spectrum. No need to get so heated about it. Just put your money where your mouth is.

Revvy said:
And I'm done with this, I don't argue with idiots.......
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PS - I already answered the question you asked twice, idiot.

There have been a lot of new threads about this topic and old threads that can be viewed via the search history bar. There are those who think it matters, and those who do not (more so the former). So use the collective opinions based on experience to come to a conclusion, or continue to do what satisfies you. I honestly don't care.
 
Guys, guys, I think we're all aware of the current opinions on wort gravity and volume not affecting hops utilization in the way we once thought. And this stuff about an inferior beer being made when you top off a batch is pure poppycock, IMO and experience. I did partial boils on my 5 gal AG batches for quite some time before getting a big enough kettle to do full boils. None of those batches were any worse for wear than the ones I make now doing full boils with no top up.
 
bobbrews said:
I can tell you one thing, if I drank 50 IPAs back to back, my palate would be drained at discerning subtle nuances and particular flavors... and I'm a professional chef.
Click to expand...

Are you like 15 years old? Where do you get this stuff? How do you know that it was just one set of judges handling all 50, how do you know it wasn't multiple pairs of judges dividing the flight up? How do you know if it was done over the same day, or broken down over multiple days to prevent judges from having "drained palates?" How do you know anything about how any beers were judged? First you said these contest were "bogus" until I pointed out what they were, THEN you came up with this?

You're just digging you're own hole, dude....you could have just agreed to disagree and moved on. You could have just said "hey, wow, I guess people are doing it this way, and making ok beer with it.....Maybe I was wrong...." The point IS, you expressed an OPINION that sounded like a fact, and when confronted you got all defensive. All you had to do was not be defensive and said, "this is my opinion" or "this is what I've heard or read...."

Geez.....:rolleyes:
 
Here's a question. How is it common sense that partial boils would make inferior beer? In what way does diluting a solution reduce the quality? Especially if it is accounted for in the recipe. Working in a lab, almost every single solution we use is made or purchased at concentrations much higher than the working concentration, sometimes thousands of times higher. If diluting a solution in exacting scientific research, where a single microliter can make a difference in success or failure, is everyday practice, what difference is it going to make in home brewing beer on a scale of gallons?

Just my .02
 
Revvy, Revvy, Revvy... You keep finding ways to avoid the challenge. Someone wanna set something up that's completely blind and fair?

I'm down. As I've said, put your money where your mouth is :mug:


PS - You asked for more detailed directness, so I gave it to you. You could have took my opinion (based on my experience) and ignored or acknowledged it politely, but you didnt.
 
bobbrews said:
You keep find ways to avoid the challenge. Someone wanna set something up that's completely blind and fair? I'm down.
Click to expand...

Again, you ARE 15 aren't you. You still feel you have to "prove" something, rather than saying you ventured an OPINION.....

I already "proved" it to myself everytime I enter a contest with judges in town, and then I SHARE the information, for folks to try it for THEMSELVES, then they can make an INFORMED OPINION, not just repeat and defend something rotely, without any practical experience doing it.

As fun as you might think this is, trying to show who's got a bigger brewing penis, I'm going to get back to answering folk's brewing questions, from my experiences.
 
Knock it off. Now. This is not a debate, and it's not the place for back and forth disagreements. You've all said what you've said. And you won't change either others' minds so let it go. No more.

Now, back on topic-

I'm firmly in the "do a smaller full boil batch" camp. I agree that hops utilization isn't a factor, exactly, except that boiling 2.5 gallons and then adding 2.5 gallons of water does lower the IBUs. (Say, 80 IBUs of wort, and then adding 2.5 gallons of 0 IBU water, that equals 40 IBUs in 5 gallons). That's fine if it's built into the recipe, but it makes it hard to get the "right" bittering for the biggest IPAs.

For many beers, it doesn't matter, but I"d rather have a nice all-boiled 3 gallon batch, especially if you don't have a fermenter big enough for 5 gallons anyway!
 
OK fine. I'll happily (at no charge) take a six-pack of beer from each of you and judge the pissing...er, brewing contest. The sacrifices I make for homebrew...
 
I still stand by my assertion that a partial volume boil with a significant amount of top off water vs. a full volume boil with no top off water, of otherwise the same recipe, will result in an inferior beer.

That is common sense, and fact in my experience... maybe not yours, either for the sake of personal pride, to argumentatively try to prove someone wrong, an off palate with less emphasis on quality, or reinforcement of the insignificant brewing medals you own. Who knows? Either way, I'm not trying to one-up you or be defensive for the sake of being defensive. You asked for it. I am simply offering my firm belief in full volume boils as it pertains to achieving the best quality beer you can brew. Even Yooper agrees and she likes you more than me :) I'll stop now because she asked us to.
 
Personally, given the effort it takes to make a batch, I do a partial boil and dilute. I don't aim for anything over 35 IBU or so, so the difficulties of hitting high bitterness levels don't come up. I'd rather schedule half as many brew days.

bobbrews said:
That is common sense
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It's one theory. For a properly constructed recipe, it's not at all obvious that the fact that not all the water was boiled will have any impact on the results.
 
I would ignore the full vs partial boil debate and decide based on how much beer you want to drink and what your schedule is like. I always do partial boils because 5+ gal full boils are tough for apartment brewing and i want to get the most beer possible out of my brew day.

The fact of the matter is that you won't be doing a partial/full boil blind taste test with this beer and you're very unlikely to notice a difference in quality without it so don't decide based on that.
 
Cincy17 said:
Here's a question. How is it common sense that partial boils would make inferior beer? In what way does diluting a solution reduce the quality? Especially if it is accounted for in the recipe. Working in a lab, almost every single solution we use is made or purchased at concentrations much higher than the working concentration, sometimes thousands of times higher. If diluting a solution in exacting scientific research, where a single microliter can make a difference in success or failure, is everyday practice, what difference is it going to make in home brewing beer on a scale of gallons?

Just my .02
Click to expand...

I don't think it's "inferior" exactly, and for many beers it may not even be noticeable. However, there are more maillard reactions in a smaller (but higher SG) wort, so you may get some of those flavors. That happens to be great in some beers- like a Scottish where it's done intentionally- so it's not necessarily "inferior". But in a beer like an IPA or a cream ale where the "texture" is light and crisp, it could be noticeable.

Also, because you can only get a maximum of so many IBUs in wort (only so much can isomerize), it's really hard to get a very high IBU in a partial boil. The maximum is thought to be around +/- 100 IBUs, but even Pliny the Elder tests at only in the 80s. Anyway, the point is, if you have a 75 IBU wort, and you dilute with 50% water, then you'd end up with a 37 IBU beer. Not an issue at all, for lower IBU beers, of course. But for a partial boil, that could be an issue in some cases.
 
Thanks for all the opinions in here.

For me, contests aren't a concern right now. So at the moment, if it tastes like beer, it's a blue ribbon to me :) (As long as it doesn't taste like Pabst Blue Ribbon)

Based on that, and my liking to have more beer rather than less beer, I'll probably go partial boil 5 gallon, and if, for some reason, that comes out cruddy, i'll give a shot to the 3 gallon next time.
 
temple240 said:
The fact of the matter is that you won't be doing a partial/full boil blind taste test with this beer
Click to expand...

That seems to be true here with refusal of the challenge...

temple240 said:
and you're very unlikely to notice a difference in quality without it so don't decide based on that.
Click to expand...

I have done this a couple times in the past (with the same recipe, twin boils) to see the differences (in IPAs), and the comparison of which beer was inferior in quality was very easily identifiable... The partial boil / top off version.
 
bobbrews said:
That seems to be true here with refusal of the challenge...

I have done this a couple times in the past (with the same recipe, twin boils) to see the differences (in IPAs), and the comparison of which beer was inferior in quality was very easily identifiable... The partial boil / top off version.
Click to expand...

There are many different levels and types of homebrewers, if your top priority is to have the best beer possible that is great for you but i prefer to balance a few factors (convenience/cost/ quality) with my brews. I don't disagree that full boils are preferable but if you try to do a blind taste test by trying each beer a couple of months apart the difference won't be so clear (and i bet both beers taste awesome).
 
Revvy said:
You don't need to defend him, besides, basically he's saying you'll make crappy beer if you attempt it. It's one thing to offer information, it's another thing to offer opinion without stating that it is opinion.

I have found that in this hobby there are MANY ways of doing things, and that when someone is "so sure" that something won't work, he doesn't realize that there are folks who are doing it that way all the time, and it IS working. And used by a lot of people.

A lot of folks just repeat what they've heard, about something, without even experimenting for themselves. And USUALLY those things that folks are so convinced is "that way" like the hop utilization thing turns out to be so miniscule that our tastebuds really couldn't detect it anyway......

My primer covers any so called "dillution" of hops quite simply....As does most brewing software when you're working with dillution....

And the other questions remains, Have either of you ACTUALLY attempted it or are you just playing armchair brewer on this one? It's one thing to do it, and share info for or against it, and it's another thing to venture opinion without even having ever tried it.
Click to expand...

Well put, sir!
 

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