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Old 02-10-2013, 08:33 PM   #41
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I didn't say that it tasted like a 65 minute addition. I said that if the time was changed to 65 minutes that it would match the ibus perfectly in response to the post saying that if 28 minutes was input, the ibus would match up.

I will stick to inputting accurate times.

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Old 02-10-2013, 08:50 PM   #42
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I think this thread is a perfect example of how subjective the outcome of FWHing really is and that it really comes down to trying/testing/adjusting the process to fit YOUR needs.

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Old 02-11-2013, 12:53 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stpug
I think this thread is a perfect example of how subjective the outcome of FWHing really is and that it really comes down to trying/testing/adjusting the process to fit YOUR needs.
First, thanks to Matt for putting up the hard numbers. That was awesome!!! And thanks to Denny & others for the counterpoints. This is one of the more useful threads I've come across on HBT in some time. It more or less confirmed what I thought about the numbers, so i got that goin' for me... which is nice.

Second, stpug I both agree & disagree with your summary.

I agree that the perception of the hop character of FWH'd beers may be different from the perception of hop character in a 60- or 90-min bittered beer. Clearly there are also different preferences on the usage.

However, I don't think that saying the outcome of FWHing is subjective is how I'd put it. That is not to say that Denny would appreciate my Imperial (FWH'd, no 60min) WestCoast Red as much as Matt or Yooper might, because their preferences ARE subjective. But the outcome is predictable--your point about empirical testing is spot on!
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:36 PM   #44
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If anyone is interested ithe results of my FWH experiment, they're here..

http://518124.cache1.evolutionhostin.../DennyConn.pdf

starting on pg. 29.

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Old 02-11-2013, 04:49 PM   #45
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In an attempt to better simplify exactly why people claim they are attaining more flavor/aroma and smoothness from FWH vs. a traditional bitter...

This is because the hops are 1) left in the wort for a longer time, bit by bit in excess of 60 minutes, which is adding more hop character, and 2) steeping at an array of temperatures (170-212 F), which does something to tone down the harshness of the early hops.

The first reason has to do with increased flavor (not smoothness). But this could result from a longer than normal boil as well; you don't necessarily have to FWH. Whether you FWH or not, the longer you leave the hops in your wort during the recipe, the more character you will get from the hops. Example: leaving your hops in for 90 minutes instead of 60. The first reason is offering more hop character, not adding smoothness. An ounce of FWH for a total of 90 minutes before they are pulled out is not going to give you more flavor than an ounce of traditional bittering hops in there for the same exact time.

The second reason is helping to tone down a bit of the IBU harshness by some sort of reaction at lower temps. that help to soften the acids. The second reason does not provide you with more flavor or aroma, just a rounder bitterness. An ounce of FWH will seem smoother on the palate than an ounce of traditional bitter. Some people want some hop bite so they choose to do half and half (1/2 oz. FWH - 1/2 oz. traditional bitter).

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Old 02-20-2013, 09:32 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
If anyone is interested ithe results of my FWH experiment, they're here..

http://518124.cache1.evolutionhostin.../DennyConn.pdf

starting on pg. 29.
Denny, I'm trying to understand this issue and there doesn't seem to be much beyond subjective impressions out there, other than your experiment. I have some questions:

1) On the bar graph, is "Bitter 1"/"Bitter 2" telling how many tasters perceived the FWH beer to be more bitter and which perceived the other beer as more bitter? If so, is FWH 1 or 2?

2) Are the "Flavor 1" and "Flavor 2" columns telling us which beer was perceived to have the most hop flavor? If so, is FWH 1 or 2?

3) You indicated that most of the testers, including you, could not correctly identify which of the 3 beers was different. Given that all of the hops were either FWH or 60 min, this seems to imply it is hard to tell the difference between the FWH and 60 min additions. If our perception of bitterness from FWH is similar to that from a 20 min addition, shouldn't it have been easier to tell these apart, given that there were no other hop additions which could have contributed to bitterness?

--Ed
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:01 PM   #47
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Ed, I'll get to your questions in a day or so when I have more time. If I space it out, please PM me to remind me!

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Old 02-21-2013, 07:19 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
Ed, I'll get to your questions in a day or so when I have more time. If I space it out, please PM me to remind me!
Thank you, sir. I have read about a study of similar design (Brauwelt) in Fix's "Principles of Brewing Science," though it compared FWH to late additions while yours compared it to 60min additions.

In your experiment, 7 of 18 picked out the different beer, which is slightly better than the expected value when considering this a random variable. However, if these were purely random choices, you would expect to get 7 or more successes out of 18 about 39% of the time.

In the 1995 Brauwelt study, comparing FWH to late additions, 23 of 25 tasters correctly identified the different beer. There is only a 0.00000015% chance of this level of success being simply random. Thus, we have good evidence that FWH can be distinguished from late additions and this is even under the condition that "middle additions" were used in both the FWH and the reference beer.

Ironically, given the popularity of the opinion that the perception of FWH is similar to a 20 min addition in both bitterness and flavor, I don't know of any study designed to directly compare FWH to a 20 min addition. Such a study seems overdue. Would tasters pick the different beer in a triangle test at around the value expected by random chance, as in your study when comparing FWH to 60min, or would it show a clearly detectable difference, as in the Brauwelt study?
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