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Scut_Monkey · 07-24-2009, 05:29 AM

Hello everyone. Saturday I will be brewing EdWort's IPA and I'm going to be trying my first shot at modifying the water to try to hit the profile for Burton on Trent. I'm using BeerSmith for figuring my additions. The best profile I was able to get is by using 17grams gypsum, 12grams Epsom and 12grams Chalk (These are for 8 gallons total).

This will bring me to the following profile with the Burton on Trent readings in parentheses CA=323 (295); Mg=45 (45); Na=38 (55); SO4=525(725); Cl=64(25) and HCO3=286(300). So everything is relatively close except sulfate which I read is pretty important for maximizing hop flavor. So my questions are....

1. Should I skip all the individual mineral additions and use a premixed Burton on Trent water salt addition? (I would rather not as it's ambiguous)

2. Should I still use pH 5.2 for the Mash?

3. Do these mineral additions seem correct for 8 gallons total and would I add these to the mash water before dough in?

4. Are drug store epsom salts food grade? (I know goofy question)

5. Can I use a 1/2 a campden tablet in the water prior to mash in to rid it of chlorine/chloramines even with all these additions?

Thanks all!

The Pol · 07-24-2009, 01:10 PM

I use distilled if I am going to the trouble of adding salts. You didnt state what sort of water profile you are adding these salts to, so I cant check the amounts to see if they look correct. Are you starting with RO or distilled?

I still use 5.2 when I build my water, most of the time my water PH isnt in line when I build water, and 5.2 is cheap insurance.

Epsom is epsom, just as long as it isnt something crazy like lavender scented

You want to add the salts before you mash in, you want this profile in your mash for sure.

Just a question, why arent you using something like Moshers Ideal Pale Ale profile?

Ca 126; SO4 281; MG 19; Na 18; Cl 48; HCO3 66

For 8 gallons you can build this with distilled water with the following additions.

Epsom 6g
Baking Soda 2g
Calcium Carb. 1g
CaCl 3g
Gypsum 11g

EDIT: I used Brewater 3.0 for this.

When I input a starting water profile of DISTILLED, and add your additions, this is what I get.

Ca 289; SO4 468; MG 39; Na 0; Cl 0; HCO3 238

I am curious as to how you got any Na, or Cl unless the water that you are starting with isnt RO or distilled... because your additions do not add any Cl or Na. My calculations are quite different from yours.

Scut_Monkey · 07-24-2009, 05:46 PM

I guess I should have mentioned that I would be using my tap water as the base. My tap water is rather good for drinking but is rather soft although untreated by me. According to beersmith the additions I mentioned would get me to the mineral profile I listed including the sodium and chloride which are already within the water and close to my target.

I am unsure what why Mosher's ideal pale ale would be better than Burton on Trent for an IPA. I can't find much info on this water profile. Can you elaborate?

Thanks for the helpful info. I wasn't sure where to buy the epsom or if I should still use the pH 5.2. Still wondering if I should use the campden tablet for the chlorine/chloramine removal. The water tastes good here but does have a very mild chlorine taste and I know they use chloramine more in the summer months for stability. Thanks again.

The Pol · 07-24-2009, 05:56 PM

Mosher and Papazian both have water profiles that are created to brighten and emphasize hop character in pale ales.

How do they compare? Never tried a Burton, I have used Moshers and really enjoyed it.

Scut_Monkey · 07-24-2009, 06:25 PM

The Pol,

Maybe you can help me. I'm trying to figure out if I read my water report wrong. Listed below is the report, verbatim. I would like to see how you read it for calcium, magnesium, sodium, sulfate, chloride and bicarb. The wording just has me screwed up and I converted some of the readings based on Palmer's conversion factors.

Calcium: 82ppm Ca as CaCO3 ............. I read this as 82ppm Ca
Magnesium: 24ppm Mg as CaCO3 ......... I read this as 24ppm
Sodium: 38ppm Na ............................ straight forward at 38ppm
Chloride: 64ppm as Cl ........................ straight forward at 64ppm
Sulfate: 56ppm as SO4 ...................... straight forward at 56ppm

The bicarb reading has me the most confused. The report states the following readings.
"Total alkalinity 40ppm total alkalinity as CaCO3"
"P. Alkalinity 4ppm P. Alkalinity as CaCO3"

From this I think that I should take the total alkalinity reading, divide by 50 and multiply by 61 to get a bicarb of 48.8. (This formula is from Palmer)

Thanks for the help.

The Pol · 07-24-2009, 06:31 PM

Calcium: 82ppm Ca as CaCO3 ............. I read this as 82ppm Ca
Magnesium: 24ppm Mg as CaCO3 ......... I read this as 24ppm
Sodium: 38ppm Na ............................ straight forward at 38ppm
Chloride: 64ppm as Cl ........................ straight forward at 64ppm
Sulfate: 56ppm as SO4 ...................... straight forward at 56ppm

I dont understand the Magnesium thing...

24ppm as CaCO3? Where is the Magnesium?

I am not a pro at reading water reports, my water is so bad that I cannot even correct it, so I just use distilled.

Wish I could be of more help.

Scut_Monkey · 07-24-2009, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pol

I dont understand the Magnesium thing...

24ppm as CaCO3? Where is the Magnesium?

Me either. The wording for the magnesium reading, calcium and bicarb have me confused. I'll try posting it to see if someone can decifer it. Thanks for the help.

jescholler · 07-24-2009, 11:07 PM

Hi mnm,

I did an ESB a couple of weeks ago, so my strategy is still fresh in my head. I've heard from Palmer that you don't want to emulate the water of BOT as it is too over the top. You do however, want to take a few key points away.

1. You want to have a high sulfate to chloride ratio. I don't have much experience with exactly how much, but I would say 3:1 or 5:1 would be good numbers. In any case, you want to keep your sulfate concentration below 350ppm.

2. Because you will have a high sulfate concentration, you want to keep your sodium as low as possible so that the bitterness is not harsh.

3. You want your residual alkalinity to be appropriate for the color beer you are brewing.

4. For the rest of the minerals, I would shoot for these target numbers regardless of the style (let your residual alkalinity be the driving factor):
Calcium: 50-150ppm, Magnesium: 10-30ppm

If you haven't already, I would recommend reading How to Brew chapter 15:
How to Brew - By John Palmer - Understanding the Mash pH

There's a lot of good information in there, and Palmer gives a spreadsheet to help you design your water profile. That's what I use.

To answer your questions:
1. I wouldn't do that. You don't really know what's in there, and it takes the fun away.

2. It won't hurt, but it shouldn't be necessary if you get your residual alkalinity correct.

3. You need to calculate your salts based on the amount of water you use, not the volume going into the fermenter. Your trying to emulate the conditions in the brewing city. Palmer recommends a good approach to mashing and sparging. He says to adjust your mash water with salts to get the desired profile. You then sparge with distilled water (or similar) because the salts aren't readily dissolved in the sparge water itself. You need the grains. When sparging with distilled water, the grains will bring the pH from 7 down to the desired range for sparging. You then add the salts to the boil that you would have added from sparging. Does that make sense?

4. Yes. but make sure they don't have any added ingredients.

5. Don't know the answer to this one.

jescholler · 07-24-2009, 11:39 PM

I found it.

To get Mg from Mg hardness as CaCO3, divide by 50 then multiply by 12.1
To get Ca from Ca hardness as CaCO3, divide by 50 them multiply by 20
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html

You are correct about the bicarbonate

Scut_Monkey · 07-25-2009, 11:04 PM

So I went with the Mosher's Pale Ale water profile by using 6.0g Gypsum and 2.0g Epsom along with 4gallons of tap water in the mash. According to Palmer after you have collected the wort and are starting into the boil you should add the minerals for the volume of sparge water used which came out to be the same mass of minerals for 4gallons of sparge..... so I added the same amounts again.

Everything seemed to go smooth except I now have no thermometer that I can rely on. I was using a floating thermometer but it and all my other thermometers were giving very erratic readings. Anyways I had to use 3 thermometers in the mash and needless to say it was a PITA and the opposite of precise. But I think I was near my mash temp of 153 throughout. The iodine test showed complete conversion at 35minutes but my starting gravity was low again. I am plagued with low effeciencies with this one at 67%. Oh well..... I'll figure it out some day and just spend a few more bucks on grain until then.

Thanks for the help guys.