Does your LHBS provide a good crush?

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MrFebtober

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I've been debating the purchase of a grain mill for a while now and have read up plenty on crushing and keep coming up with the same question: Why are so many homebrew stores not crushing grain as thoroughly as most homebrewers think to be adequate for good efficiency?

There are countless stories on this forum of homebrewers being unsatisfied with the crush services of their LHBS. One would think the store owners would know as much or more about grain crushing than the average homebrewer, yet it is very common for them to have their mills set wider than is needed to get that high efficiency that is so sought after. I find this puzzling. Does a wider gap extend the life of the mill? Is it to absolutely minimize the risk of customers ending up with stuck sparges? Is it a scheme to encourage customers to buy more grain than necessary to hit the same O.G. (or sell them grain mills of their own)?
 
Laziness?

I expect that the wider setting covers nearly all of their grains without making flour and also provides for a speedier crush.

An adjustable grain mill (if necessary for your brewery) is definitley a worthwhile investment as it puts more of the variable of efficiency under your control.
 
It appears at the typical LHBS, it's about compromise...between efficiency, stuck/slow sparges and not wanting to have to fiddle with the mill for every single order. When you are milling your own, there is no need to compromise.

On the positive if they don't adjust their gap, you should get fairly consistent eff.
 
Get your own mill if you can afford it. Your efficiency will go way up. I gained 6 points off mine. Thats a pound or two of base malt grain I save each time.


LHBS don't crush like you would at home becasue there will always be that one guy who will complain about it being to fine. Ask them to crush it twice if you arent happy with it.
 
What grains require a wider crush than ol' 2-row? Wheat, i've read, requires a finer crush, but I have no idea about the roasted barley and such.

I can afford the mill, but just looking for as much justification as possible before I drop coin on one. You guys are really helping, thanks!:mug:
 
I can afford the mill, but just looking for as much justification as possible before I drop coin on one. You guys are really helping, thanks!:mug:

Easy :)

-You'll buy grain in bulk, save $$
-You'll get a great crush, better effi...save $$
-You have control over another variable in the process
-Crush moments before brewing, fresh!
-if you're a 90lb weakling or couch potato, you can manual crush and get some exercise
 
Your LHBS crush for you? I get to crush my own grain. Very cool LHBS Flying barrel in Frederick, MD. You crush your own, you get your own grain out of the bucket and weigh it and your hops. I guess you could say its more work but seems to me that if were already brewing our own beer its because we want things to be our way so I appreciate the hands on approach.

I have not checked if the grain mill is adjustable but my guess is that it is. I will look into it next time I am there.
 
I've declared Austin Home brew as my "Official" LHBS, and we've discussed that one. The Brew Hut in Denver is my #2, and they seem to have a great crush. I've gotten 66% on my AHS Grains, but A whopping 70 and 73 % out of the Brew Hut Crush. They look the same, but hell....my guess is as good as any.
 
Buying my own mill saved me dollars in many ways.

For a mere 45 dollar investment *thank you Craigslist* I got a brand new mill that has increased my efficiency by 15, yes 15 points.

Rather than having 40% of my grainbill remaining basically untouched other than cracking, I get a full and complete milling at the rate and size I like.

Got a cordless drill?

Set up a stop and it will run at slow speed and give you ultimate control of your process.

Look at it this way; Your LHBS is in the business of selling grain. If you have 58% efficiency and buy 23 lbs for a 11 gallon batch, he is ahead.

He is in business to make money.

Your efficiency issues are not his concern.

I have since found I use my LHBS more as an emergency backup now. Having 150 lbs of grain on hand will change the way you look at brewing beer.

Cheers,

knewshound
 
Look at it this way; Your LHBS is in the business of selling grain. If you have 58% efficiency and buy 23 lbs for a 11 gallon batch, he is ahead.

He is in business to make money.

Your efficiency issues are not his concern.

Your LHBS is also in competition with every mail order place on the internet. If their crush is worse than B3 or Northern, they will lose customers guaranteed. I know for certain that my LHBS dude cares a lot about my efficiency, because I slip him a couple bottles out of every batch :D

My LHBS has a MonsterMill MM-2 hooked up to a small motor. I get better efficiency than mail order through that thing, and they're not too expensive either. I've been thinking of getting one myself.
 
I also get to crush my own grain at the LHBS. I think it's pretty awesome but the owner has already sent me back to crush finer. I guess he knows what he's doing as I got about 65% on my first AG.

Mike
 
Keep in mind that beer software is set for 75% effeciency. If you are only hitting 65% you need to buy more grain. We like to aim for 70% which is more reasonable.

Forrest
 
May I ask with a standard Mill, what is the best general all purpose setting. My LHBS is really great and the new owner is a friend of mine and the store has two mills, both were set at .54, it sucked. I talked my friend to move it to .41 and it's much better. The crush looks like pictures posted here but I do have pretty poor eyesight.
I have seen some people post as low as .35, the shop has two motorized mills, one could be for the steeping grains, extract etc, and one for serious, tempting stuck sparge mashes.
I just really don't want to push my friend to too fine of a crush if it will pis$ off his customers. PM me please if you have a good recommendations.
Some very good brewers have posted that the crush may not have that large of an impact, but right now anything and everything can help my sorry .....
 
My LHBS has a MonsterMill MM-2 hooked up to a small motor. I get better efficiency than mail order through that thing, and they're not too expensive either. I've been thinking of getting one myself.

That's exactly the mill I've got my eyes on, too! (would go BarleyCrusher but me likey building stuff:D)

I do get to crush my own grains at my LHBS, and the mill is apparently adjustable (it's a philmill II, I think), as I've walked out with very different crush levels on different occasions. I'm sure the owner would gladly show me how to adjust it, but even then that would mean bringing a feeler gauge in to the shop with me and readjusting the mill everytime I get grain, which sounds like a PITA to me. I've only brewed 6-7 all grain batches so far but have had a heck of a time dialing in consistent efficiency, which is making recipe concoction for future batches a bit of a challenge. I feel like my inconsistent (and likely inadequate) crushes may be part of the problem.
 
Keep in mind that beer software is set for 75% effeciency. If you are only hitting 65% you need to buy more grain. We like to aim for 70% which is more reasonable.

Forrest

Hey, that's still better than the John Palmer's stupid slide rule, which assumes you're getting 80% mash efficiency. (Not that John Palmer's stupid, I quite like How To Brew. It was me who was stupid for buying the sliderule before knowing fully what mash efficiency even was. :drunk:)

Well, looks like my mind is pretty much made up on this. Thanks for all the advice and justification. Monster Mill, here I come! :mug:
 
Keep in mind that beer software is set for 75% effeciency. If you are only hitting 65% you need to buy more grain. We like to aim for 70% which is more reasonable.

Forrest

dunno about beersmith (and I can't imagine it's different in this respect) but promash & beertools allow you to specify your effic %.
 
I love my LHBS, but I was getting a lousy crush from them. I asked them if it would be possible to adjust when I milled and they were glad to oblidge. I still got me a mill though :) and raised my eff 8 pts. Like I said, I do love my LHBS, but I also love the feeling of hauling a 50 lb sack of malt and milling my own grain (ah! that smell!!). You'll also save gas by not driving to your HBS every brew weekend. Buy a mill. You won't regret it.
 
I've declared Austin Home brew as my "Official" LHBS, and we've discussed that one. The Brew Hut in Denver is my #2, and they seem to have a great crush. I've gotten 66% on my AHS Grains, but A whopping 70 and 73 % out of the Brew Hut Crush. They look the same, but hell....my guess is as good as any.

+123. I've hit as high as 78% with grains crushed by The Brew Hut, with a double batch sparge. Beer and Wine at Home in Denver has a pretty good pair of mills too. I get similar efficiency numbers. Both TBH and B&WaH let you drive the mill yourself, which my six-year-old daughter thinks is pretty cool. She likes to help measure and crush grain.

Both LHBS' are on a par with the crush and efficiency I've had from Austin Homebrew as well.
 
What grains require a wider crush than ol' 2-row? Wheat, i've read, requires a finer crush, but I have no idea about the roasted barley and such.

I can afford the mill, but just looking for as much justification as possible before I drop coin on one. You guys are really helping, thanks!:mug:

If you are getting a good crush on two row then there isn;t anything I can think of that needs a wider setting. But when you throw wheat, rye, millet, or sorghum into the grist then you need a tighter gap.

My mill is a fixed gap mill but my LHBS is happy to let you crush your own. So, when using the more obscure (not really) grains then I crush those at the LHBS.
 
Woohoo! Just placed my order for a Monster Mill MM-2 ($119 shipped)! Now MrFebtober will call the shots when it comes to crush!

Time to start designing the hopper and base. :rockin:
 
Hey folks My brewstore, MDhomebrew has my eff to 75% so I am pleased. They allow me to buy bulk grain(1/2 price vs. per LB grain) and bring it to the store to crush on brewday. I usually buy the specialty grains, hops and crush 2-3 batches worth at the same time. Works for me and 1 less thing to deal with. I have eyed the barley crusher for awhile though. Charlie
 
May I ask with a standard Mill, what is the best general all purpose setting.

I’d say 32 mil, this is about 0.8 mm.

51 mil or 1.3 mm is way to wide for a proper crush. Especially when the grain is used in a single infusion mash. The problem with the coarse crush is, that the mash water cannot reach all the starch in the kernel. The grits become to large, and even worse, the endosperm is still lodged in the husk where only one side is open to the water. And now you expect a 60 min mash to “chip” away on that one side to get to all the starch. That doesn’t work. And that’s why the efficiency is so crappy.

When I did my experiments for the mill gap setting, I didn’t go past 0.95 mm b/c I thought that nobody would set a mill gap wider than that. Looks like I’m wrong and I should run some more experiments.

I crush at 0.55 (22 mil) and have gone as low as 0.4 mm (16 mil). All of this with malt conditioning, which keeps the husks from shredding excessively. But now I’m backing off again (last one was at 0.65 mm) b/c I noticed that after my mashes there is no starch left in the grain (as it should be) and that milling finer doesn’t give me additional efficiency b/c I’m already getting all the possible extract into the mash water. Crushing the grain dry, I wouldn't go below 0.7 mm though.

Palmer’s number of 80% for efficiency is about right. It’s what you can expect from batch sparging when you had close to 100% mash efficiency. I see mash efficiency as a measure of how well did the mash convert the extract in the grains.

Kai
 
How is Midwest crushing? I prefer my LHBS, but everyone loves thier Irish Red and it's probably cheaper for them to ship it to me than drive to the LHBS.

Mike
 
Forrest, why only aim for 70%? Why not crush for 75%? Why aim for below-average efficiency? :confused:

Our all grain recipe kits are for 70% so that if your technique is poor you will still hit the OG. If your technique is good the you will easily hit the OG or better.

Also, if we aim for 75% and the customer does not hit the OG, Austin Homebrew and "our crush" will be the reason. The kit has a little extra grain to make sure they hit the OG. The reason they hit or surpass the OG will not be because we added a little extra grain, it will be because of their wickedly awesome brewing skills that got them 75-80% efficiency.

It is better to have a little more alcohol than not enough.

You can quote me on that.

Forrest
 
How is Midwest crushing? I prefer my LHBS, but everyone loves thier Irish Red and it's probably cheaper for them to ship it to me than drive to the LHBS.

Mike

What would it take for you to try my Irish Red Ale? I tend to think that mine is better (my customers agree).

Forrest
 
I'd give it a shot. I've actually looked over your site quite a bit.

Mike

Edit: On second thought, Midwest is still $28 shipped and you will be over $40 shipped.
 
Forrest, why only aim for 70%? Why not crush for 75%? Why aim for below-average efficiency? :confused:

If they figured for a 75% efficiency, then they would actually give you less grain. So for the, looking ahead and expecting that some customers might hit a lower efficiency, they are looking after them in the customers' advantage. Sounds like the place I want to buy my kits from, eh?
 
My LBHS is 65 miles away so I generally use mail order for everything except Bulk grain (at $4.00 a gallon it costs me $20 plus 3 hours to get to the closest one)

My Malt mill gets me an average of 80-85% efficiency. Adjustable crushers are definately worth the extra $.

What would it take for you to try my Irish Red Ale? I tend to think that mine is better (my customers agree).

Forrest
I generally order from AHS on orders under $60 for the flat rate shipping, for over $60 I use More Beer for the free shipping on orders over $60. Others get my business when I need something they have on sale or can't get at AHS or More Beer.
 
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