Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Does anyone step or fly mash anymore ? Acid rest ? Old schoo
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-15-2006, 05:56 PM   #1
brewman !
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,228
Liked 14 Times on 13 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default Does anyone step or fly mash anymore ? Acid rest ? Old schoo

I am retrofitting my brewing setup and trying to make some equipment decisions. Mostly about whether to use a HERMS.

But the more I read, the more I wonder if its even necessary. It seems like "everyone" does single temperature batch mashes in a cooler ! Who needs this HERMS stuff ?

But here is what I don't get. I am a lager and wheat beer guy. My bible is Dave Miller's "The Complete Handbook Of Home Brewing". All of Dave's lager and wheat beer recipes use step mashes with an acid rest in the 128F area before boosting to 150 something, before boosting to mash out temps.

Do people not do this for lager beers anymore ? Is that old school thinking ? Does anyone acid rest anymore ? Are the beers as good if you don't ?

I understand that some people infuse a lot of water to boost temps for say, mash out. Doesn't the mash get pretty thin and doesn't that put a lot of tannin into the wort ?

Do infusions and batch spargings work as well for lager beers as HERMS and fly sparging ?

Thanks.

__________________

Getting back into brewing...

brewman ! is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-15-2006, 06:04 PM   #2
zoebisch01
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
zoebisch01's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Central PA
Posts: 5,198
Liked 7 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewman !
Does anyone acid rest anymore ?
Thanks.

According to Palmers guide, he basically says that it is not necessary to a lot of people because the understanding of water chemistry has come a long way. In other words people are changing their pH via. chemical intervention rather than the acid rest.
__________________
zoebisch01 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-15-2006, 06:19 PM   #3
brewman !
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,228
Liked 14 Times on 13 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

Quote:
people are changing their pH via. chemical intervention rather than the acid rest.
Could you tell me more ?

Say I am brewing a light pilsner, say 4.5% and I'm using pretty much straight 2 row. How do I mash and sparge it ?

Dave says 7.5 pounds of grain, 11 quarts of mash water. Hold at 131 for 30 minutes, then 2hours at 150, letting it drop to 141, then mash out at 168 for 5 minutes. Sparge water is 5 gallons at pH 5.7 at 168F.

That recipe came from Dave's book, the first version, page 199.

How does one brew this with a cooler and batch sparging and is it as good ?
__________________

Getting back into brewing...

brewman ! is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-15-2006, 07:18 PM   #4
david_42
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
david_42's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Willamina & Oak Grove, Oregon, USA
Posts: 25,664
Liked 139 Times on 132 Posts

Default

I'm not certain when the first edition was printed, but my 1995 copy has no acid rests in it. Miller just says, "Unnecessary with today's malts. Only a few traditionalists still use it." and "Single step infusions are all that is needed."

__________________

Remember one unassailable statistic, as explained by the late, great George Carlin: "Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!"

"I would like to die on Mars, just not on impact." Elon Musk

david_42 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-15-2006, 07:19 PM   #5
brewman !
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,228
Liked 14 Times on 13 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

And yet if you look at Palmer's lager recipes, most of them use multi step mashes. I think lagers need more temp control that ales.

http://howtobrew.com/section4/chapter19-4.html

__________________

Getting back into brewing...

brewman ! is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2006, 12:25 AM   #6
Baron von BeeGee
Beer Bully
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Baron von BeeGee's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Barony of Fuquay-Varina, NC
Posts: 5,419
Liked 17 Times on 16 Posts

Default

128F is a protein rest, not an acid rest. An acid rest occurs around 105F.

I saw a noticeable improvement in the flavor of my Hefeweizen when I included an acid rest. However, in this case it's not just for the lowering of the mash pH but also for the generation of ferulic acid which is a precursor of some of the unique flavors in a Hefeweizen.

__________________
Baron von BeeGee is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2006, 01:33 AM   #7
Kaiser
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Kaiser's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pepperell, MA
Posts: 3,904
Liked 115 Times on 71 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

I agree that the classical acid rest is obsolete with most modern malts. Even the less modified ones. I may still do it for other reasons. 1st it's a good starting point for a heavily decocted beer since the enzymes get a better chance to dissolve in the wort and are better protected against the heat that will come. It also is a rest where not much is going on (little protein or starch conversion) which is good when having to rest there a long time due to an ongoing decoction. The Baron already pointed out the increased ferulic acid production which is great for wheats if you like the phenolic character.

Protein rests are more important, but you have to watch out that you don't do to much here. I don't think that there is much need for a protein rest with American or British 2-row and the styles brewed with these beers don't need it either. But for German styles I always make a protein rest when using German malts. Lot's of the mouth feel in German lagers is coming from protein and not from dextrines. The enzymes that convert the proteins are actually similar to the amylases in that they will produce more short chained proteins (amino acids - compare to maltose for the amylase rests) at lower temps (122F) and more medium chained proteins (compare to dextrines for the amylases) at higher temps (133F). The former are necessary yeast food and the latter are good for head retention. The problem is that unlike the starches, proteins may have already been converted enough and that you don't want to do a low temp protein rest.

I currently use a 2 step infusion mash with deoction mash-out for mashing German malts. Protein rest at 53C with about 2.5 L/kg (~1.25 qts/lb) water to grist ratio. I add boiling water to get me to 65-66 *C and 3.8 L/Kg (~1.9 qts/lb) for starch conversion and mash out at 75 *C with a thin decoction that I boil for only 1-3 min. The latter is a technological necessity since I only have a 5gal cooler and I cannot add water for a mash-out. Thin mashes are actually preferred for more delicate beers since you will get more of the desirable first wort. This will actually lead to less tannins in the beer that having a tick mash and being forced to sparge more.

But I also doubt that HERMS systems are well suited for step mashes. To me they seems great for keeping the temp for a single infusion constant and maybe rising the temp to mash-out, but lack the mixing capabilities for a step mash. When using a HERMS/RMS I would actually reverse the flow and increase the flow rate to cause turbulences in the mash-tun. During the mash-out rest I would reverse the flow to set the grain bed and clarify the wort.

I'm keeping up with the German home brewing scene and have yet to see a HERMS/RMS system like American home brewers use it. This may have to do with the different brewing background that both cultures have. Mixing the mash during mashing seems to be very important to German brewers and some are even wondering how mashing in a cooler with just one rest can actually work.

Kai

__________________
BrauKaiser.com - brewing science blog - Twitter - water and mash chemistry calculator
Kaiser is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2006, 01:35 AM   #8
Hopfan
Nice Beaver....
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Hopfan's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lincoln University, PA
Posts: 664
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewman !
I am retrofitting my brewing setup and trying to make some equipment decisions. Mostly about whether to use a HERMS.

But the more I read, the more I wonder if its even necessary. It seems like "everyone" does single temperature batch mashes in a cooler ! Who needs this HERMS stuff ?

But here is what I don't get. I am a lager and wheat beer guy. My bible is Dave Miller's "The Complete Handbook Of Home Brewing". All of Dave's lager and wheat beer recipes use step mashes with an acid rest in the 128F area before boosting to 150 something, before boosting to mash out temps.

Do people not do this for lager beers anymore ? Is that old school thinking ? Does anyone acid rest anymore ? Are the beers as good if you don't ?

I understand that some people infuse a lot of water to boost temps for say, mash out. Doesn't the mash get pretty thin and doesn't that put a lot of tannin into the wort ?

Do infusions and batch spargings work as well for lager beers as HERMS and fly sparging ?

Thanks.
OK, I'll take a stab at it...Yes.
__________________
When we find out how many bodies you buried in the basement, will we be more shocked or disappointed at the number?

Zip ties are the duct tape of the 21st century

Bad Dog Brewing
Sit...Stay
Hopfan is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2006, 05:53 AM   #9
brewman !
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,228
Liked 14 Times on 13 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

Kaiser: you and I are on the same page on this stuff. See my posts about using a heatstick and stirring to accomplish these multiple step mashes.

__________________

Getting back into brewing...

brewman ! is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-16-2006, 05:59 AM   #10
Yuri_Rage
Gritty.
HBT_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yuri_Rage's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Southwest
Posts: 13,997
Liked 631 Times on 394 Posts
Likes Given: 58

Default

Listen to Kaiser for the brew-chem lecture.

For what it's worth, I have a HERMS, fly sparge, and I love it. It's how I was showed to AG brew, it makes sense to me, and my efficiency climbs with every new brew. Certainly a single infusion mash is adequate for almost all cases with well modified malts, but I like the flexibility the HERMS provides in maintaining a constant temperature as well as the ability to raise it as I desire.

__________________
Homebrewed Blog..........YouTube Channel .......... Shirts, posters, etc
Yuri_Rage is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How much effect does a ferulic acid rest have? Kaiser Brew Science 10 06-30-2014 04:02 AM
Acid Rest batfishdog37 General Techniques 8 03-15-2013 06:31 PM
Left grains in hot car all day, does that count for an acid rest? Griffsta All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 5 05-24-2009 03:25 AM
Acid Rest modenacart All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 6 05-20-2008 01:35 AM
So I did an acid rest on my Alt. cge0 General Techniques 1 03-03-2008 06:54 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS