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Old 04-15-2011, 03:35 AM   #1
paraordnance
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Default Diacetyl developed in keg?

Well, here goes my first stab at lager, actually two of them and I'm dissapointed in what I think is dreaded diacetyl First batch was Munich Helles, second (week later) Pilsner Urquell clone, both taste almost identical (almost same grain bill) not to mention that Pilsner is little more bitter. When I say identical I mean they both have off-flavour that I never tasted before with 12 bathces or so of ales brewing. I assume its diacetyl, its kind of buttery, but not what I expected when people mention butter and butter scotch. Not very sharp, but its there. I cannot taste any malt, they both very clean and smooth except that somewhat sweet/buttery/slick aftertaste. Both were fermented for 2 weeks, 2-3 days diacetyl rest, then kegged. The biggest problem is both beers are in a kegs, lagered (3 weeks) and carbed. I don't remember any buttery taste before kegging, tasted good actually. I been sampling all along and this taste doesnt go away. I read before that lagers can taste funky before lagered so I assumed that its a 0.25 lbs of Honey Malt I taste in my Munich Helles (don't ask me why I added Honey Malt to Munich Helles, its a different story ) slightly sweet and slick but they both have same taste and smell, so I'm taking HM out of equasion since there was no HM in Pilsner
Here is my question, how can I fix this problem at this stage? Its kegged right after primary, I didn't do secondary on both for the fear of infection/oxidation during transfer. My first ever lager (pilsner) went down the drain from secondary because of what I think was acetaldehyde from infection or something, 5 gal of vinegar, could not save that I have 2 more batches fermenting right now in temp controlled freezer all of them above, pitched and fermented @ 48F all with a same yeast, Wyeast 2001 & 2206. One is Vienna/Tettnanger SMASH lager, other Pilsner.
Should I get the kegs out of the freezer, warm them up and sprinkle some Nottingham/US-05 on top? Or may be make little starter from Notty and add to both kegs? I also have a pack of W34/70 on hand which I'm ready to sacrifice to lager gods. So many questions, please help.

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Old 04-15-2011, 02:25 PM   #2
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Recipe and process? Longer in primary. 6 weeks minimum

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Old 04-15-2011, 02:28 PM   #3
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I would not have dumped other batch either..what happened there...how long did you age that one?

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Old 04-15-2011, 02:42 PM   #4
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Munich Helles
BIAB (no-chill)

9 Pilsner
0.5 Munich
0.25 Carapils
0.25 Honey Malt

1 oz Tettnang 60 min
0.5 oz Hallertauer 30 min

Mash @ 152F for 60 min. Pitched Wyeast 2206 (2.5 qt starter) next day @ 48F
OG 1.044
FG 1.008

Primary 14 days, diacetyl rest for 3 days in closet @ 68F ambient. Then keged for lagering.

Pilsner Urquell clone
BIAB (no-chill)

9 Pilsner
1 Vienna
0.25 Carafoam

0.5 oz Magnum 60 min
1 oz Saaz 10 min
1 oz Tettnang (cube hop)

Mashed @ 149F for 90 min. Pitched Wyeast 2001 (2 qt starter) next day @ 48F
OG 1.050
FG 1.008

Primary 14 days, diacetyl rest for 2-3 days in closet @ 68F ambient. Then keged for lagering.

I think my problem is too short of diacetyl rest, I bring my primary carboys out of the freezer as soon as I see swirling inside starting dramatically to slow down, as soon as I move fermentors to closet yeast gets to work again but temperature inside carboy changes slowly and yeast doesnt finish their job. I then transfer directly to keg for lagering. I always sample before kegging and tasted something funky but was reading that lagers can taste like that before lagering so assumed its normal.

I pulled both kegs out of freezer last night to warm them up. Here the what I was thinking, since I don't do secondaries there is plenty of healthy yeast on bottom of these kegs, what if I just turn them upside down couple of times and ressuspend the yeast and leave them @ room temperature for a week to clean up. Will this help? Anyone done it this way? Thanks, trying to save 10 gal of lager goodness. Its taste great and clean but diacetyl I think is there
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Old 04-15-2011, 02:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discgolfin View Post
I would not have dumped other batch either..what happened there...how long did you age that one?
Actually that first ever Pilsner was not salvagable, it was in secondary for 3 weeks and it was getting worse, kind of acetone, solventy taste. I think my taste pallate is not so good, I actually though it was diacetyl so I pulled out of freezer and let it sit for a week at room temp it was only getting worse, vinegar like quite disgusting to even sample, I had to let her go down the drain
You can see at the bottom my thread about "diacetyl during lagering" in fact what I thought as diacetyl was what I think some sort of infection, thats why I was too scared to move it to secondary this time to minimize any transfers.
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:13 PM   #6
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What was the gravity when you did the rest? You want to do the rest while the beer is still fermenting (about 2/3 done.) The yeast will take up the diacetyl during the transition between anaerobic fermentation and the stationary phase.

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Old 04-15-2011, 05:36 PM   #7
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Something is wrong with process. Maybe as other poster suggested..do rest earlier. Than leave longer at rest before you cool it down. I would akso be sure your yeast is healthy strong and in good numbers.

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Old 04-15-2011, 05:59 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by beerkrump View Post
What was the gravity when you did the rest? You want to do the rest while the beer is still fermenting (about 2/3 done.) The yeast will take up the diacetyl during the transition between anaerobic fermentation and the stationary phase.
I did the rest when gravity was almost at FG, may be it dropped couple points after that. IIRC Pilsner Urquell was rested @ 1.011 is that my problem?
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:05 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by discgolfin View Post
Something is wrong with process. Maybe as other poster suggested..do rest earlier. Than leave longer at rest before you cool it down. I would akso be sure your yeast is healthy strong and in good numbers.
I quite confident about yeast, there was almost no lag, 12 hours max, last batch around 7 hours and it was going strong, didn't expect that at all. I pitch a lot of yeast in lagers, last Vienna SMASH lager I dumped whole jar of washed yeast from previous batch
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:45 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by ettbeer View Post
if you had enough good yeast it shouldn't have produced much diacetyl if the whole process started and stayed at 48F throughout fermentation. if it took 4 weeks of primary fermentation at that colder end (48F) it wouldn't be a surprise...you shouldn't even need a d rest.
thats what I thought too, particulary with 2206 which is known as low producer of diacetyl.
So does anybody actually know if and how I can salvage already kegged batches?
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