crappy efficiency again...

Last Monday I got a terrible efficiency while brewing Bobby's Amber Ale. Also I realized I was mashing in with too much water at too low of a temperature, 5 gallons at 154. This monday I was brewing the Chaos IPA from the forum database. I mashed in with 4 gallons at 168 which according to the calculator I used should have settled my mash temp pto 153. For some reason I still missed my strike temp by about 14-15 degrees. so I added 1,5 gallons of boiling water until I got it up to 153. It maintained that temperature for the full hour like it should. I was originally going to have two batch sparges at 2.25 gallons a piece, but since I added the extra water to rescue my strike temp I decided to do one sparge with 3 gallons only. I've since read that doing only one sparge will cause a 10-15% efficiency loss, so that might partially explain my problem. Long story short, Before the boil I took a hydrometer reading of 1.039 at 130 degrees, which converts to 1.053. Very low considering my OG was supposed to be 1.066. I did the boil(Hit my target volume dead on for the first time to look on the bright side) and ended up with an OG of 1.035 at 55 degrees. 30 points short of what I wanted. Why? Dear sweet lord why? I got a better efficiency last week with 5 gallons of of strike water that was too cool. 42% efficiency according to bear tools. To top it all off we discovered that we never succesfully popped the pouch inside our activator yeast until the package was opened. I stabbed the pouch with a pin, taped the package up, shook it and let it sit for about half an hour before pitching it. So that can't be good either. Why does life have to be so hard?

Ouch. I'm not sure what you're doing wrong. How about your crush? Do you have your own mill or do you get it precrushed?

If I were you, I'd try direct-fired stepped mashing like I do---mash in your kettle. 133f for 20 mins, 149-155f for 70 mins, 158 for 20 mins or until iodine test is negative, 167 mashout, 170 sparge temp. 1/2 gal per pound of grain for the sparge.

Also, use pH stabilizer in your mash water.

Past that, not sure what else to tell you. It could only be the crush. Because I used the method I just described last night on my IIPA and hit 80% eff.

I only have an 8 gallon kettle though. I want to try to get it right the proper way though too. I bought all of the grain pre crushed except for 2 lbs which I milled at the brew store. I don't think the crush could have been that bad. I don't know why I missed my strike temp by so much. I pre heated my MLT and all that. That might have something to do with the low efficiency, although I rescued it fairly quickly. So far only sparging once at 170 seems to be my main culprit, although I suspect there was a second shooter as well.

am I missing something? how does your gravity go from 1.053 to 1.035 after the boil? the gravity should have gone the other way when you boil off some of the water. There's something wrong with your measurements or your math.

First of all, don't let this stuff get you down. It's just the way brewing goes. One of these days, you'll be nailing your temps, gravities, and volumes while you are telling war stories about your first batches. Until then, just drive on.

Second, if I read your post right, you report an adjusted SG before the boil at 1.053 and an SG of 1.039 after chilling. Am I right about that? If so, then I think your main problem may lie with your hydrometer or hydrometer process. Either that or you're on your way to a Nobel Prize for figuring out how to lower the specific gravity of wort while also reducing its volume.

In other words, SG doesn't drop between the time you start the boil and the time you finish the boil. The SG should rise as you concentrate the wort. You're probably better off than you think.

And, with the smack pack, you've hit upon another good reason to make a starter. Had you made a starter, you would have noticed the problem with not breaking the bubble. In that event, I would just dump all the package contents into the starter vessel and let nature take its course.

Hang in there, man! We've all had these problems, believe it or not!


TL

It you had 1.039 at 130, before the boil then you should be about right on.

1.039 at 130 = 1.052 at 60

After boil you should have somewhere close to 1.065.

Somewhere you are taking a bad reading.

Yeah, I'm with TL and Shaffer. Either your first reading was wrong or your second reading. I make it a point to stir the pot before taking a sample. This ensures that the wort is properly mixed up. If you let the wort sit for any amount of time, the heavy sugars will start to fall to the bottom of the pot. If you take the reading from the top you will get a lower reading than what is really in there.

Also, one thing to remember is that the larger the grain bill, your efficiency will drop in correlation. This has to do with more sugars being left behind in the MLT. The only way to try and counteract this is to sparge longer/more and boil down the excess volume. Anything over 1.057 on my system, and I start to loose 5-7% points of efficiency unless I start off with 14-16 gallons in the boil pot.

Put your initial infusion water in the MLT at least 10F hotter than the software says the strike should be. If it says 169, put 180F in and close the lid for 5 minutes. Then check the temp. If it's 169, dough in. If it's still high, stir until it is 169. You will not miss the temp.

Just like the others have asked, how did you have a preboil of 1.053 and post boil of 1.035? Did you add water AFTER the boil?

I really tried to take every measure to ensure a proper reading. I took a temperature reading, usede a wine theif, swirled the hydrometer, the whole nine yards. I'm confused. I think I'll buy a new hydrometer and digital thermometer for next time. In regards to my yeast. It took a day longer for fermentation to begin this time than it has in the past, which I attributed to my packet not being properly prepared. However I also noticed that the temp in that area of the house had dropped to 60 degrees. I moved the carboy to a 66 degree area and it began to ferment immediatley. So how large of an effect will this have on my final product? Cheers mates.

Edit: NEvermind, I should learn to read the whole thread before posting.

I didn't top off at all this time around. If one of the readings was wrong I bet it would be the first one I took out of the kettle at 1.052 based on what I'm reading here although I'd prefer it the other way around. Also I wanted to ask. In How to Brew he says you should put water on grain. But other things I've read and heard say the opposite. What's the opinion on that? I did it the way they said in the book this time if that could be a factor.

I'm sure your beer will be fine. Starting at a low temp and gradually raising it isn't bad on the yeast at all. Just slows them down at first.

I'm pretty sure most people do what bobby said. Put the water in first, let it drop to the proper strike temp then add the grain. I've never missed a mash temp by more than 2 degrees that way.

Also, was your grain really cold? Like, Below 70? Below 60 would have any bigger effect.

I don't think grain first vs. water first is going to have too much of an impact on efficiency, though I could be wrong. I add the water first then the grain on top of it. I'll add the grain in 3 portions, stirring in between. It helps keep from having big dough balls some. The only way it'll affect efficiency is if you don't break up the dough balls that do form.

thanks for the insight every body. I'll be checking this out again in about 7 hours. You all rock.

Oh yea, are you stirring vigorously at the beginning of the mash? Got make sure there are no dry balls in there.

but it's possible I could have done it more vigorously I bet.

Bobby_M said:

Put your initial infusion water in the MLT at least 10F hotter than the software says the strike should be. If it says 169, put 180F in and close the lid for 5 minutes. Then check the temp. If it's 169, dough in. If it's still high, stir until it is 169. You will not miss the temp.

Just like the others have asked, how did you have a preboil of 1.053 and post boil of 1.035? Did you add water AFTER the boil?

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Why does Palmer say you should add water to grains and not other way around? I just did my first AG batch and preheated Tun, then added water to grain. Does it matter?

There's a lot to read and I may have missed it, but are you pre-heating your tun with hot water before mashing. If not, that will drag your mash temps down. With room temperature grain and a pre-heated tun 168 degree water should be right on.

korndog said:

Why does Palmer say you should add water to grains and not other way around? I just did my first AG batch and preheated Tun, then added water to grain. Does it matter?

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I think it's just to help avoid dry pockets

I get anywhere from 75-85% efficiency usually around 80ish, I heat the water in the Mash tun, add the grain, stir then wrap it with a water heater insulation pad.. never had any issues except needing to stir more for wheats to break up the dough balls. My grain dreams about room temp, I store it outside so it is generally below 60 in winter, just add a couple degrees to strike temp to compensate

I pre heated the MLT.

jdoiv said:

I don't think grain first vs. water first is going to have too much of an impact on efficiency, though I could be wrong. I add the water first then the grain on top of it. I'll add the grain in 3 portions, stirring in between. It helps keep from having big dough balls some. The only way it'll affect efficiency is if you don't break up the dough balls that do form.

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Just my recent experience here. I had up until today, been adding h2O to grain, with minimal stirring and I have been getting somewhere around 60% efficiency. Today, I went water first, added grain slowly and stirred the hell out of it. I hit 80% efficiency today, and wound up overshooting my estimated OG by 10 points or more. Finally a mistake that goes my way

Sounds like you did a batch sparge...I think? There was a lot goin' on in your post, but I will post one thought.

I did some reading on Ken Schwartz's modeling of batch sparging, along with some additional thinking on my own.

I've only done ~10 batch sparges, but I'm thinking that the #1 contributor to a low efficiency in batch sparging is insufficient stirring at mash-out and with your sparge. Given the quality of malts these days, I'm guessing all that other stuff is secondary.

Unlike fly-sparging, batch sparging is primarily driven by diffusion. What the hell does that mean? Diffusion is the "force" that causes concentrations of things to want to be equal...it's the thing that makes the sugar in your grain dissolve into the surrounding water.

After a 60 minute mash, I'm 90% confident you converted all the starch to sugar. Now you want that sugar to diffuse into the surrounding water. The first time this is important is after the mashout. Say you're adding 1 gallon of water. That water has a concentration of sugar = 0. You need to stir like crazy to get all the sugar to dissolve/diffuse into this new clean water. Now drain as fast as you can. Once the sugar is dissolved into the water, you're just draining it. A poor grain crush will also limit diffusion.

Now, with your sparge water, again diffusion will be important. You need the sugar that is still trapped in the grain to diffuse out into the water so the concentration of sugar in the grain drops to the concentration of sugar in the surrounding water. So stir like crazy for a long time to help diffusion out.

Bottom line: if you're batch sparging, make darn sure you're stirring really well at mash-out and with your sparge.

I don't do a mash out infusion and I never stir the mash prior to first runnings so I doubt that's a big problem. I'm thinking it's more crush and sparge temp related.
I get between 89 and 93% with my method which includes a slightly stiff mash (between 1.1 and 1.2 qts/lb) and a hot batch sparge broken into two portions.

The first infusion is usually 180F which gets the equilized grain temp just under 168F. By then the remaining sparge cools to near 170 so that I don't exceed the tanin danger zone. I do stir very well with every sparge infusion.

I'm convinced that the equilized sparge temp is a large factor because when I brewed with Soulive yesterday, his sparge hit 168F and mine only hit 160 (my water had cooled). He got 94% and I got 89% on similar grain bills and exact same crush.

Bobby_M said:

I don't do a mash out infusion and I never stir the mash prior to first runnings so I doubt that's a big problem. I'm thinking it's more crush and sparge temp related.
I get between 89 and 93% with my method which includes a slightly stiff mash (between 1.1 and 1.2 qts/lb) and a hot batch sparge broken into two portions.

The first infusion is usually 180F which gets the equilized grain temp just under 168F. By then the remaining sparge cools to near 170 so that I don't exceed the tanin danger zone. I do stir very well with every sparge infusion.

I'm convinced that the equilized sparge temp is a large factor because when I brewed with Soulive yesterday, his sparge hit 168F and mine only hit 160 (my water had cooled). He got 94% and I got 89% on similar grain bills and exact same crush.

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You don't stir when you first add your grain and water together? What about dry pockets?

I'm no expert, but I just had the same problem with my first AG, really, really bad effc., like 50%. This was a kit I bought pre-crushed by the LHBS.

For my second batch, I hooked up with a local homebrewer and he crushed my grains. I could tell by the crush and the smell that this was my problem.

Second batch hit over 80%. Like others have suggested, I pre-heated the MT, added the water and waited for it go drop to strike temp (171), added the grain, stirred and hit my mash temp of 155. Covered for 60 min and sparged for 56 minutes.

I'm convinced the biggest issue I initially was the grain milling. We even went to where we dumped the first batch of grain and saw tons of whole grains that were not split. In the second batch, any grains that were not visibly split, split as soon as you touched them with no pressure whatsoever.

Ó Flannagáin said:

You don't stir when you first add your grain and water together? What about dry pockets?

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Sorry, I should have been more specific. I stir upon dough in, but that's it until the batch sparge infusions. I don't find any additional sugar will be coerced out of the grain by stirring after it's been soaking for 60 minutes because the gravity of the liquid is so high already.

korndog said:

Why does Palmer say you should add water to grains and not other way around? I just did my first AG batch and preheated Tun, then added water to grain. Does it matter?

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I don't know why he says this. I experienced that I will get dough-balls if add water to the grains trying to hit temperature that's above the gelatinization temp for barley (around 140 -145 *F). That's why for single infusion mashes I have to mill the grains into a bucket and add them to the MLT after the water went in.

For multi step mashes where my first rest is the protein rest or lower I can mill into the MLT and add water w/o getting dough-balls.

bobwantbeer, my vote is for crush. I have seen some horrible crush come out of some HBS's grain mills.

Kai

Kaiser said:

...
bobwantbeer, my vote is for crush. I have seen some horrible crush come out of some HBS's grain mills.

Kai

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I got above 60% efficiency maybe twice with HBS milled grain. Milling myself definitely made the biggest impact in my brewing efficiency.

Bobby_M said:

I don't do a mash out infusion and I never stir the mash prior to first runnings so I doubt that's a big problem. I'm thinking it's more crush and sparge temp related.
I get between 89 and 93% with my method which includes a slightly stiff mash (between 1.1 and 1.2 qts/lb) and a hot batch sparge broken into two portions.

The first infusion is usually 180F which gets the equilized grain temp just under 168F. By then the remaining sparge cools to near 170 so that I don't exceed the tanin danger zone. I do stir very well with every sparge infusion.

I'm convinced that the equilized sparge temp is a large factor because when I brewed with Soulive yesterday, his sparge hit 168F and mine only hit 160 (my water had cooled). He got 94% and I got 89% on similar grain bills and exact same crush.

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I'm going to give this routine a try tomorrow. I missed badly last time. The recipe I am following says Mash in at 145 then raise to 152. What is the best way to calculate volume/temperature of hot water addition to hit the 152. Also, how important is it to mash in at 145. How long? Here is grain bill. Does anything in there stand out as needing the step up?

8.75 lbs 2-row Pale Malt
2.5 lbs Rye Malt
1.25 lbs Flaked Rye
1.15 lbs Munich Malt
0.625 lbs Wheat Malt
0.625 lbs CaraPils Malt
1.75 oz Black Malt

Make sure your thermometer is calibrated correctly. My last 3 batches my eff. dropped from a routine 75-80% to 55 to 60%. I realized then that i was using a different thermometer and yesterday went back to using my original one and reached 77% eff.

korndog said:

I'm going to give this routine a try tomorrow. I missed badly last time. The recipe I am following says Mash in at 145 then raise to 152. What is the best way to calculate volume/temperature of hot water addition to hit the 152. Also, how important is it to mash in at 145. How long? Here is grain bill. Does anything in there stand out as needing the step up?

8.75 lbs 2-row Pale Malt
2.5 lbs Rye Malt
1.25 lbs Flaked Rye
1.15 lbs Munich Malt
0.625 lbs Wheat Malt
0.625 lbs CaraPils Malt
1.75 oz Black Malt

Click to expand...

I'd never use longhand math to figure it out although there is a formula for it somwhere. The temperatures are all calculated for you in a brewing software like Beertoolspro or Beersmith (at least I think so as I only have BTP).

I wouldn't mess with stepped mashed just yet. I'm sure you'll have a successful outcome if you just shoot for the 152 straight away.

Bobby_M said:

I'd never use longhand math to figure it out ......I wouldn't mess with stepped mashed just yet. I'm sure you'll have a successful outcome if you just shoot for the 152 straight away.

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I was hoping you would say that.

Do they Mill it at the manufacturer or at the store when it comes in? Most of the grain I bought for that batch was pre crushed, which is what was reccomended in Radical Brewing. If I can't get pre crushed I try to take unmilled grain to my local brew pub and they mill it for me. They have their mill on a motor and it's crushed almost immediatley. It's sweet. I'm confident I'm getting a good crush when I go there. So perhaps my issue is I need to get all the grain crushed at the same place every time.

korndog said:

I'm going to give this routine a try tomorrow. I missed badly last time. The recipe I am following says Mash in at 145 then raise to 152. What is the best way to calculate volume/temperature of hot water addition to hit the 152. Also, how important is it to mash in at 145. How long? Here is grain bill. Does anything in there stand out as needing the step up?

8.75 lbs 2-row Pale Malt
2.5 lbs Rye Malt
1.25 lbs Flaked Rye
1.15 lbs Munich Malt
0.625 lbs Wheat Malt
0.625 lbs CaraPils Malt
1.75 oz Black Malt

Click to expand...

Try this works for me.
http://www.beertribe.com/gizmos/calcs/infusionb.php