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Old 04-22-2012, 10:49 PM   #11
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Can I ask a biology question? Why do these grains contain enzymes that would never be active at temps experienced in the living plant? Seems like a lot of energy for the grain to synthesize these enzymes if they are only to be used when dead.

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Old 04-22-2012, 10:53 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by MrManifesto
cold steeping dark grains is a process that is common/catching on. mashing is different and temp dependent. you can't "cold mash".
Exactly, stepping dark grains is very similar to cold brewing coffe. Extraction of sugar its impossible without temp. Im always open to new concepts/technics so I try not to be very judgemental about anything but in this case sounds to me like total madness
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Old 04-22-2012, 11:00 PM   #13
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I see now that Steeping and Mashing are different animals. I know he said Steep, I was thinking Mash. I think I must have daydreamed during part of our conversation.

This is from The Jovial Monk...

Cold steeping
Cold steeping is necessary with dark, roasted grains such as chocolate malt, black patent malt and roasted barley, and roasted rye and wheat malt.The German Carafa Special version of chocolate and black patent can, as we havCarafa version of roast barley so this must always be cold steeped.
Cold steeping, using water at room temperature, presents some challenges. Cold water cannot dissolve the sugars etc out the grain as quickly as hot water nor can it hold as much in solution. So we use more water and leave the grains steeping for longer.
For cold steeping we use five times as much water by weight as the grain, 2.5L cold water for 500g of grain.The water is just room temperature water, water out the cold water tap if using tap water—cold steeping does not mean using chilled water! We still add the grain slowly to the measured amount of water, stirring really well to ensure every grain is wet.
The water–grain mix is left to stand several hours—at least 6 hours or overnight. If doing this in warm weather you can cover the container holding the grain–water mix and placing it in the fridge if you are worried about bacteria grwoing in the mix. However, not even this is enough.
With cold steeping we do sparge the grain in the sieve.We need 100-150ml of 80°C water to sprinkle evenly over the grains in the sieve over the pan of other wort, washing out more sugars etc.The hot water is in the grain dissolving the sugars not dissolved during the period of the steep, then it is straight out the sieve so not in the grain long enough to extract astringency.
It is preferable to have a graduated measuring jug and thermometer but in an emergency a teacup of water 10 minutes off the boil can be used.
To make up for the ineficiency of a cold steep you can increase the amount of grain specified by a recipe by 10–15%.
Use five times as much water as grain Let mixture steep at least six hours Carefully sparge the dark grains to wash out more sugars and flavors etc
Note to mash brewers
Mash brewers normally would not hot steep grains, crystal malts being added directly to the mashtun. However, when brewing a really big beer by hot steeping specialty grains outside the mash tun space is made available for more base malt in the mash tun.
Mash brewers would cold steep chocolate etc malt.When nearly all the sparge water has been used up the dark grain is put into the mash tun and the last of the sparge water poured over the dark grain.
Even mash brewers can benefit from using the steeping methods discussed here.

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Old 04-22-2012, 11:07 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by FlyDoctor View Post
Can I ask a biology question? Why do these grains contain enzymes that would never be active at temps experienced in the living plant? Seems like a lot of energy for the grain to synthesize these enzymes if they are only to be used when dead.
Well, malted barley isn't present in the living plant! The barley is malted first, and then it can be mashed for starch conversion. That's where the enzymes come from- the malting process.
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Old 04-22-2012, 11:09 PM   #15
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Well, malted barley isn't present in the living plant! The barley is malted first, and then it can be mashed for starch conversion. That's where the enzymes come from- the malting process.
Well those enzymes actually do work at normal living temperatures for the grain. Malting just makes them available.

There's a very simple idea in biology called Q10.... basically, it's the quantified amount of metabolic increase for every 10*C increase in temperature.

The biggest thing to get out of this? The warmer the temperature the faster biochemical process happen (to a certain point, of course.) They work at lower temperatures, just not fast enough for humans to benefit from (i.e. mash with them)
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Old 04-22-2012, 11:18 PM   #16
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Well the reactions are time/temperature dependent...higher temp equals shorter time...enzymatic reactions approx. double for every 10C rise in temp. The question is whether adequate gelatinization can occur at low temps since this is what makes the starch "edible" for the enzymes. The enzymes are always there they just need enough kinetic energy to drive the reaction.

This guy says he let it sit for 24 hours so even at very low energy levels that amount of time just might provide for adequate reaction to convert. Put it in an 80F room for 24 hours and I think it's totally plausable.

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Old 04-22-2012, 11:27 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helibrewer
Well the reactions are time/temperature dependent...higher temp equals shorter time...enzymatic reactions approx. double for every 10C rise in temp. The question is whether adequate gelatinization can occur at low temps since this is what makes the starch "edible" for the enzymes. The enzymes are always there they just need enough kinetic energy to drive the reaction.

This guy says he let it sit for 24 hours so even at very low energy levels that amount of time just might provide for adequate reaction to convert. Put it in an 80F room for 24 hours and I think it's totally plausable.
This here is the correct answer. The enzymes work fine at room temp, just very slowly.

I suspect that gelatinization would be a problem, but even more lethal would be spoilage. Grain is silly with lacto. Give the bugs 24h in a warm wet place with plenty o' food and I can't imagine how the beer would be drinkable. I haven't tried it though.
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Old 04-22-2012, 11:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by FlyDoctor View Post
Can I ask a biology question? Why do these grains contain enzymes that would never be active at temps experienced in the living plant? Seems like a lot of energy for the grain to synthesize these enzymes if they are only to be used when dead.
Ah...malting is nothing more than a controlled germination that is stopped at a precise time.

All the starch in the endosperm is nothing but stored energy to grow a plant...the plant can't use that, it needs simpler sugars. During germination these enzymes are formed and exist on the inside surface of the husk, there to provide the conversion for the plant as it grows...the plant grows slow enough that the reactions don't have to be fast. That's why the endosperm is "consumed" during the seedlings growth, it's being converted to sugar!!
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Old 04-22-2012, 11:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamHain View Post

This is from The Jovial Monk...

Cold steeping.....
Very interesting. I'll have to give this a try! I agree that it sounds very plausable.
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:55 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helibrewer View Post
Ah...malting is nothing more than a controlled germination that is stopped at a precise time.

All the starch in the endosperm is nothing but stored energy to grow a plant...the plant can't use that, it needs simpler sugars. During germination these enzymes are formed and exist on the inside surface of the husk, there to provide the conversion for the plant as it grows...the plant grows slow enough that the reactions don't have to be fast. That's why the endosperm is "consumed" during the seedlings growth, it's being converted to sugar!!
Well put. I was writing almost this exact post in my mind when I saw yours. Glad I didn't have to type it out.
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