carboy curds??

I brewed my first all grain batch this past weekend. It's been happily fermenting away for 3 days, and is almost done. It's a Koelsch using mostly Weyermann pilsner malt, a bit of wheat malt, and WLP-029 koelsch yeast from a starter (1.2 oz Perle boiling, and 1 oz. Spalt aroma). I used a single infusion mash at 147 F for one hour. The one thing that I think is "wierd" about this batch is that I used 2 tsp of Polyclar Brewbrite, a PVPP/carageenan mix in the last 15 min of the boil to help clarify the beer. I don't have much experience with this fining agent.

I've brewed a similar recipe before using a partial mash technique. After 2 years of homebrewing, I've never seen these type of curds before. I hope the image shows up. If it doesn't, the curds are grey-ish, about the size of coarse cottage cheese curds, and they were floating at the top of the carboy with the high krauesen up until today (the 3rd day of fermentation at 70 F). Now they are resting at the bottom of the carboy, above the white yeast layer.

I must say the green beer looks quite clear. through the carboy wall. Any feedback from the homebrewtalk community on what these curds might be? I noticed similar curds in the boiling wort. Is this just coagulated protein? Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Wow that's what I call flocking. It's sure doing it's job.

Expect some clear beer.

I thought polyclar was used in secondary. Is it done? whats your hydrometer say?

I just had a Lager do that . I think it has something to do with rest temp. I did a step mash and then rested at 149' . But , I also used Irish moss in the last 15 so it could be a fining deal. My beer looked exactly like that though with the yeast layer below the curds. I just remember that I also used Weyermann Pilsner malt in my Lager, about 80% of the grain bill.

littlehop said:

I thought polyclar was used in secondary. Is it done? whats your hydrometer say?

Click to expand...

Pure polyclar (PVPP) is typically used in a secondary. It binds to polyphenols and precipitates them to the bottom of the carboy. Polyphenols are one of two primary components that cause chill haze.

Polyclar Brewbrite is used in the boil kettle (similarly to irish moss) to clarify wort (and ultimately the beer). It contains PVPP to get rid of polyphenols. It also contains kappa carageenan (the active component of irish moss). This binds to proteins and causes them to precipitate out. The link from the manufacturer below tells all about it.

http://www.ispcorp.com/products/beverage/content/brochure/polybrew/PolyclarBrewbrite.pdf

I'd say it definitely helped, but at a recommended usage level of 10-20 g per hectoliter (26 gallons), I guess I was questioning my use of 2 tsp. I am assuming that is close to the 1 to 2 g I should have used...

That is just yeast flocculating and settling out, like WBC said. You'll find that every yeast flocs a little differently.


TL

danotts said:

Pure polyclar (PVPP) is typically used in a secondary. It binds to polyphenols and precipitates them to the bottom of the carboy. Polyphenols are one of two primary components that cause chill haze.

Polyclar Brewbrite is used in the boil kettle (similarly to irish moss) to clarify wort (and ultimately the beer). It contains PVPP to get rid of polyphenols. It also contains kappa carageenan (the active component of irish moss). This binds to proteins and causes them to precipitate out. The link from the manufacturer below tells all about it.

http://www.ispcorp.com/products/beverage/content/brochure/polybrew/PolyclarBrewbrite.pdf

I'd say it definitely helped, but at a recommended usage level of 10-20 g per hectoliter (26 gallons), I guess I was questioning my use of 2 tsp. I am assuming that is close to the 1 to 2 g I should have used...

Click to expand...

The same polyphenols that are a flavor compound in Belgians? Say no to polyclar!

Glibbidy said:

Expect some clear beer.

Click to expand...

Yeah, no kidding. Today, I pulled the primary out of my temperature-controlled freezer (70 F), and I could almost see across the room through the carboy! It was truly beautiful. The f.g. was spot on (4.6 % ABV), and the flavor profile is where it should be for a Koelsch at this stage (a little sulfury).

I emailed White Labs with a picture of the curds, and this is the response I got (not too surprising):

"Dan,

Thank you for your inquiry. I forwarded your photo to our lab manager, and neither of us have seen this yeast look like this. There might be something else in there besides yeast. And possibly, the look could be due to the method used for the starter which caused too much aeration for too many days. While it is difficult to say the cause, it does not look normal for this strain,

Cheers!"

So, for the benefit of anyone else who has the opportunity to use Polyclar Brewbrite, I'm quite convinced that the carboy curds were an effect of the 2 tsp I used in the boil, and were the "something else" noted by White Labs. There was no evidence of a spoiled fermentation, and the beer was ultra-clear coming out of the primary. I'm really looking forward to the final product in a couple of weeks.

Curd up, yo!

Glibbidy said:

Expect some clear beer.

Click to expand...

Just to sum up this thread, here is a picture of the end result: a true to style Koelsch at 4.6% ABV, with a characteristic dry mouthfeel, and Spalt aroma and flavor. All in all, it's the most delicious batch of homebrew I've made to date, and look at the clarity.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25955335@N04/2506562695

DAYUMN! That there is some clear beer!

Way to go man...I'll have to look into the Brewbright!

Damn that looks tasty. And clear. Good to see that cottage cheese you added during the boil didn't affect it at all.

Where did you buy the Polyclar Brewbrite? I did a quick Google search for it and this post came up as the 5th result, so pretty high on the list. Plenty of links for ISP Corp who apparently makes the stuff, but no retailer links. I guess it's a new product?

I have to say that you must be extremely pleased with this beer and I would like to try the same recipe and yeast so I can experience what you have done. I would hope that it would work the same here. Please share your source for this clarifier as I can not locate any source for it on the web. The MFG's web site is not working for some reason........ Maybe the demand has outstriped the servers's ability to respond.

That is some clear beer! I think the curds were the coagulated proteins from the brewbrite. You'll have a lot more proteins from the hot and cold break with an AG beer than an extract. The extract has already had most of these proteins removed during the drying/evaporating phase of extract production.

I am looking into purchasing a bulk order (22 lbs) of polyclar brewbrite from ISP. If this isn't cost prohibitive, or illegal, I could potentially be the commercial source. If I do this, would anyone be interested in getting some from me? If so, what quantity would you want and how much would you be willing to pay? I currently have 8 oz of the stuff (8 oz x 28 g/oz = 224 g. 8 oz fills up a quart jar. I used 2 tsp (est. 2 g, but I don't have a scale) for my 5 gal koelsch batch, which seemed like a good amount. I was thinking of taking 2 tsp of Brewbrite and weighing it on a scale at work to get the precise quantity in grams.

I will post more info when I hear from ISP

My last batch of stout did that same cottage cheese looking stuff using a White Labs Irish Ale yeast. All of my previous batches using the same yeast did not. No other ingredients changed and I don't use polyclar...only a whirlfloc tablet. Beer came out tasting the same as ever, but it was weird looking.

my last message ended up posting twice b/c my internet was messed up.

I might be interested in purchasing some. Probably just enough for 10 batches or so. I wonder what it would do in a wheat beer? might be interesting to experiment with.

how about posting the recipe and procedure you used. Maybe we can all replicate it and photo our curds and enjoy that kolsch you are raving about!

More than a few of you have asked, so here is the recipe:

7.5 lb Weyermann Pilsner malt
0.75 lb wheat malt
1.25 oz German Perle pellets, bittering (6.4 % AAU)
1.0 oz German Spalt pellets, flavor/aroma
WLP-029 Koelsch yeast from 0.7 L starter (stir plate method)
softened tap water (I have a water softener in my home)
2 tsp Polyclar Brewbrite

o.g. 1.044
f.g. 1.011 (4.6 % ABV)

Mashed in 1.2:1 (qt/lb) @ 158 F to hit 147 F single infusion mash temp. At 30 min, temp was 146. Did not check at 1 hour. Mash time = 60 min. Did several pitchers of recirculation/vorlauf and collected 1st runnings. Began lautering w/ 175 F water (5 gal). Collected 6 gal total of wort and split into two pots for stovetop boil (3 gal each pot). Bring to boil. 60 min total boil time. Perle hops in at 60 min. Spalt hops and Brewbrite in at 15 along with immersion chillers. After boil, chilled to about 80 F. Transferred to glass carboy and aerated with back end of brew spoon for 2 min. Measured gravity and pitched yeast starter. Fermented at 66-68 F for 7 days (fermentation was active < 12 hours after pitching yeast), then transferred to secondary for 2-3 weeks. Stepped temperature down 2-4 deg. F/day until near freezing. Racked to keg and force carbonated with intermittent shaking at 34 deg F and 13-14 psi. Beer was carbonated after 1 day.

Beer had a dry mouthfeel, a crisp cleanliness, no particularly fruity or "winey" notes, firm but not overbearing bitterness, and a pronounced Spalt flavor and slight aroma. Very slight sulfury (lager-like?) note initially, which dissipated after the first few glasses.

By far the best batch I've made. Incidentally, I only had to do the two pot method once before deciding to get a turkey fryer. My next batch of AG is an Altbier that should be ready in a couple weeks that I made with the turkey fryer and Brewbrite... more on that later...

Prost!