Brew in a Bag Vs. MLT brewing... opinions?

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billc68

billc68

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I have been reading about AG brewing and researching on here. I like the concept of Brew in a Bag, simple, less equipment etc. So what are the disadvantages to BIAB?
Also I see there are two ways to BIAB, one using all your water at first and the other with two kettles, one for sparging.
 
I have a few people that come in the store that BIAB. 1 does it the ol' 1 kettle way with OK results... 1 that I know of sparges and gets much better results as far as efficiency goes.... I do crush their grain twice through the mill and that helps them a bunch. If I was going to BIAB I would sparge some myself.
Jay
 
I've done BIAB a few time with great success. In many ways its easier and I've also been able to get really good efficiency, better than when I MLT. I'd say the only drawback is that its difficult to do big beers or beers with a lot of grain. I've always done the two kettle version.
 
I have used a cooler MLT w/ good results for the past few years. BIAB was not in fashion when I started AG brewing so I never went that direction. As Jaybird said above, makes sense to me to at least "sparge" the bgag in some fresh water to gain a bit of efficiency, but either way brings end results.
 
This might be perfect for me then, I want to do some Pilsners this fall as well as some lighter colored lagers, Heineken, Becks' style (which I guess are technically Pilsners)

I may try a red ale or Irish stout as well, but we'll see.
 
imo...mlt's are so easy to make...if you are limited on space maybe, but the cost is not that much.
 
http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2009/04/14/brew-in-a-bag-biab-all-grain-beer-brewing/
This page also has links to the Aussie Brewer thread which contains lots of discussion. I have done 4 BIAB batches the Aussie way (1 kettle), I am getting cloudy wort into the kettle. I have been told this is ok & will settle out in the fermenter. I like that it is one less piece of equipment to build, clean, & store. But, if I can make better beer with a MLT, I may have to try it.
 
I think I will use the two kettle method, not sure if I need a second burner or not, I do have a butane stove that may be enough to maintain heat.
I am going to pick up a 40-60L aluminum pot with a basket for steaming shellfish, this will allow me to keep direct heat while mashing when necessary. I already have a 50L pot, I should be able to leave the bag in the basket and transfer the basket to the next pot.

I did see some info somewhere on the two kettle method of BIAB, are there any more sources? Videos? etc?
 
Heineken said:
In many ways its easier and I've also been able to get really good efficiency, better than when I MLT.
Click to expand...

I have not tried BIAB but a few guys in my Brew Club have. They have made some extremely good beer using the BIAB method that we all enjoyed at a club meeting, but lets be honest, even they admitted their efficiency was nowhere near that of a proper sparge done with a Mash Liquor tank.
 
I do BiaB with a single batch sparge (2-vessel) for 80-90% of my brews. The exceptions are when I want to do more complicated mash schedules (a step mash is pretty easy with 2 vessels, but the steps get fuzzy if you're doing 1-vessel) or just to stay in practice. I average 77-78%ish efficiency. Note that while thin mashing is very common (and a good idea a lot of the time), you don't _have_ to do a very thin mash with BiaB.

For single infusion mashes, the 2-vessel BiaB is functionally very similar to a MLT setup with a single batch sparge, but faster and with easier cleanup.

Advantages:
Simpler (fewer moving parts), which makes getting consistent efficiency slightly easier.
Faster (even when sparging)
Easier cleanup
No risk of stuck sparges

Disadvantages:
Big grain bills can be a pain, really big ones and big batches can be impossible depending on the bag and the person holding it.
Complicated mash schedules can be difficult to impossible; with single vessel, even step mashing (or doing a protein rest or whatever) is iffy.
 
Sawdustguy said:
I have not tried BIAB but a few guys in my Brew Club have. They have made some extremely good beer using the BIAB method that we all enjoyed at a club meeting, but lets be honest, even they admitted their efficiency was nowhere near that of a proper sparge done with a Mash Liquor tank.
Click to expand...

I only single-crush my grain and I'm getting just under 80% efficiency. Consistency's more important than absolute eff. to me, but I wouldn't be surprised if people who double-crush or crush very fine can get even higher efficiency than many MLTs.

I do sparge (basically a single batch sparge).
 
I do BIAB and I don't get the greatest efficiency, but it's more related to grain bill. The bigger the grain bill the worse the efficiency. I've found with about 10lbs. of grain I can get over 70% efficiency pretty easily. Up to 12lbs. and eff is still decent. Anything over 12lbs. and it's a wash, might as well just stick with 12lbs as I don't get anything extra from the grain. I have not been able to make a beer over 1.060 OG without adding some DME. I also find it harder to maintain mash temp for a whole hour.

All that being said, I love the simplicity and lack of initial equipment to pay for. My beers that are BIAB all-grain are far better than my extract-with-specialty batches I was doing before. And I don't mind doing a partial-mash with 1-2lbs DME every now and then for bigger beers.
 
Here is where I got my start: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-stovetop-all-grain-brewing-pics-90132/

I do one thing different from the referenced thread, in that I mash in a 5 gal cooler I found on a jobsite. This holds the temps really well, and allows me to use one pot, while still doing a sparge.

Edit: I have been getting between 75% and 85% efficiency using this method. Now that I am milling my own grain, I hope I can get a consistent # dialed in for repeatability's sake.
 
phishfood said:
Here is where I got my start: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-stovetop-all-grain-brewing-pics-90132/

I do one thing different from the referenced thread, in that I mash in a 5 gal cooler I found on a jobsite. This holds the temps really well, and allows me to use one pot, while still doing a sparge.

Edit: I have been getting between 75% and 85% efficiency using this method. Now that I am milling my own grain, I hope I can get a consistent # dialed in for repeatability's sake.
Click to expand...

So I guess this would be basically the same idea as using an MLT except that instead of removing the liquid from the grain, you are removing the grain from the liquid. Then sparge in the second pot and dump the two together to start your boil. Does that sound about right?

I like that idea even more, except doing this on the stovetop must be difficult, I have a hard time getting more than a few gallons to boil and being in Canada, I will be doing a 6 Gal batch.
 
SumnerH said:
I only single-crush my grain and I'm getting just under 80% efficiency. Consistency's more important than absolute eff. to me, but I wouldn't be surprised if people who double-crush or crush very fine can get even higher efficiency than many MLTs.

I do sparge (basically a single batch sparge).
Click to expand...
I am not going to argue with you and cause a big to do but I am very skeptical.
 
i also use the 5 gallon gott cooler to mash in for brew in a bag and sparge in the brew pot is easier to remove the grains from the liquid of the mash and sparge. I would highly recomend a large callander that fits over the gott cooler and or brewpot so not holding the bag as it drains and as one of the previous authors stated 12 lbs grain is about it for my 5 gallon set up
 
phishfood said:
Here is where I got my start: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-stovetop-all-grain-brewing-pics-90132/

I do one thing different from the referenced thread, in that I mash in a 5 gal cooler I found on a jobsite. This holds the temps really well, and allows me to use one pot, while still doing a sparge.

Edit: I have been getting between 75% and 85% efficiency using this method. Now that I am milling my own grain, I hope I can get a consistent # dialed in for repeatability's sake.
Click to expand...

billc68 said:
So I guess this would be basically the same idea as using an MLT except that instead of removing the liquid from the grain, you are removing the grain from the liquid. Then sparge in the second pot and dump the two together to start your boil. Does that sound about right?

I like that idea even more, except doing this on the stovetop must be difficult, I have a hard time getting more than a few gallons to boil and being in Canada, I will be doing a 6 Gal batch.
Click to expand...

LandofOZ said:
i also use the 5 gallon gott cooler to mash in for brew in a bag and sparge in the brew pot is easier to remove the grains from the liquid of the mash and sparge. I would highly recomend a large callander that fits over the gott cooler and or brewpot so not holding the bag as it drains and as one of the previous authors stated 12 lbs grain is about it for my 5 gallon set up
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I do. I use the 5 gallon cooler for the mash with a 5 gallon nylon paint strainer from Lowes. Towards the end of the mash I heat the sparge water drain the grain and sparge/rinse in the remaining water then combine the water and boil.

This weekend I did my first big beer this way and was much more laid back this second time with this brew method than the first when I "did it by the book" and had to mash/vorloff/drain/sparge/vorlofff/drain. also got much better efficiency and hit/surpassed my target numbers. but then again a year more of brewing helped that also.

Did https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f74/johns-red-english-barleywine-97485/ which was 15 lbs of grain and I mashed it in just under 4 gallons which topped off the cooler and I was not able to fully close the lid but it was sunny and hot here so left it in the sun and had almost no heat loss mashed at 154 for 90 min. because of this I thought it would be best to sparge this much grain twice. one I mashed with 2 G for 15 min the other I rinsed the grain with 2 gallons. I ended up with 1.098 OG shooting for recipe OG of 1.092 at 70% after adding the DME.:)
12 lbs does sound like a proper limit.

Can't think of an easier way to do All Grain
 
billc68 said:
So I guess this would be basically the same idea as using an MLT except that instead of removing the liquid from the grain, you are removing the grain from the liquid. Then sparge in the second pot and dump the two together to start your boil. Does that sound about right?

I like that idea even more, except doing this on the stovetop must be difficult, I have a hard time getting more than a few gallons to boil and being in Canada, I will be doing a 6 Gal batch.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. I figure out my mash water volume and temp, heat it in my 8 gal pot (+a few degrees that will be lost to heating the cooler). Dump that into the cooler, and if I am close to my pregrain strike temp, add the bag and the grains (stir the grain into the water as you add them, don't add them and then stir). Make sure the mash temp is where I want it, then put the lid on. After awhile, start heating sparge water in the same 8 gal pot, timing it to where the sparge water is up to temp as I finish draining the bag (one of these days I will get that timing figured out:D). Then sparge, add mash wort to sparge wort, and boil.

I have a hard time getting 5 gals to boil on my stovetop, having to straddle two burners to get a rolling boil going. I wouldn't even attempt the 7 3/4 gal boil that I did with a IIPA a few weeks ago. A turkey fryer is a big help for this. Not to mention for when you are draining the bag and you still have another 20 degrees to go to hit your sparge water temp, just open that valve wide and watch the thermometer climb.:)

Two different pluses here. A 5 gal cooler is probably going to be cheaper than another big pot, and if later you want to fly or batch sparge, you can still use the cooler.

Edit: I use a mash paddle underneath the bag to help hold it up while it is draining.
 
Bill, check out my link in my signature. I just did and 11 pound brew in a bag. I used an electric turkey fryer, but would be pretty similar to direct fired gas.

My suggestion to you is use the spargeing method - you'll get more sugars out. the bennefits include no stuck sparge, easy clean up and better drainage of wort from the grains. The difficulty i have is finding a bag side enough to fit my turkey fryer.
 
If you have access to a sewing machine, a bag is simple to make. I used some old polyester/nylon sheer curtains and nylon thread to make the grain and hop bags.

Bag is much easier to drain if you have the collecting vessel on the ground. I have a thick drawstring on my bag that I can tie to something and let it hang. Also after the bag is mostly drained I place it in a pan and add whatever else drains out to the boil.

You can jump on the stovetop if you insulate the kettle and/or use a heatstick.
 
I was thinking about using this to hold the bag:

d7f87c12-c785-4820-9f3d-8bc11623b0aa_300.jpg


The other advantage, if I go with two pots instead of a cooler, the strainer will actually hold the bag about a 1/4-1/2" from the bottom of the pot.
 
Sawdustguy said:
I am not going to argue with you and cause a big to do but I am very skeptical.
Click to expand...

That's fine and I respect that.

I'll just say this. If you do an MLT brew with a single-batch sparge, essentially you have the grain sit in the mash tun and then have it sit in sparge water briefly before draining. If you do a BiaB brew with a single sparge, that series of steps is precisely identical-the only difference is that you move the grain instead of moving the water. But otherwise, you're really just doing the same process, and the only difference is that with BiaB you can do a very fine (or double) crush. So, notionally, it seems pretty obvious that a BiaB with sparge should be able to be more efficient than triple-vessel with single batch sparge. That agrees with my experience.

Now, a fly sparge is another issue. I could easily see that being more efficient. And there are a whole lot of other reasons (not related to efficiency) that a 3-vessel setup could be better for certain brews--a big enough grain bill that the bag won't hold it, a bigger batch (most 10+ gallon brews), step/decoction mashes unless you have a setup modified for them, etc.

But just saying "because you move the grain instead of moving the water, you can't have good efficiency" strikes me as the sort of thinking that's worth reexamining--especially since my experience is that it's untrue for me.

And that's coming from someone who still uses a 3-vessel setup for a lot of brews. Both systems have their place. But BiaB is not inferior, not impossible to get consistent efficiency with, and not something that's doomed to low efficiencies. It's also not a panacea. Use the right tool for the job!
 
SumnerH said:
That's fine and I respect that.

I'll just say this. If you do an MLT brew with a single-batch sparge, essentially you have the grain sit in the mash tun and then have it sit in sparge water briefly before draining. If you do a BiaB brew with a single sparge, that series of steps is precisely identical-the only difference is that you move the grain instead of moving the water. But otherwise, you're really just doing the same process, and the only difference is that with BiaB you can do a very fine (or double) crush. So, notionally, it seems pretty obvious that a BiaB with sparge should be able to be more efficient than triple-vessel with single batch sparge. That agrees with my experience.

Now, a fly sparge is another issue. I could easily see that being more efficient. And there are a whole lot of other reasons (not related to efficiency) that a 3-vessel setup could be better for certain brews--a big enough grain bill that the bag won't hold it, a bigger batch (most 10+ gallon brews), step/decoction mashes unless you have a setup modified for them, etc.

But just saying "because you move the grain instead of moving the water, you can't have good efficiency" strikes me as the sort of thinking that's worth reexamining--especially since my experience is that it's untrue for me.

And that's coming from someone who still uses a 3-vessel setup for a lot of brews. Both systems have their place. But BiaB is not inferior, not impossible to get consistent efficiency with, and not something that's doomed to low efficiencies. It's also not a panacea. Use the right tool for the job!
Click to expand...

I never mentioned how I sparge. I actually have a clone (with a few more goodlies) of a Sabco Brew Magic so I fly sparge. If you look in my gallery you can see alot of pictures of it. I never said BIAB was inferior if you read my post. As a matter of fact I mentioned that some guys in my brew club made some very tasty beer with the method. Even they admitted that efficiency took a big hit. I am just skeptical of the big efficiency numbers I have read in this thread. I never said you couldn't make good beer with it.
 

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