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Old 10-22-2012, 07:38 PM   #11
wickman6
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I batch sparge and I'm not mashing out, as in I dont raise my mash above 170. It's my understanding anything north of that will potentially extract tannins. I actually keep my grainbed around the same temps that I sac rest at usually.

Tannins can also be extracted if pH levels raise over 6 I think. That could be a problem for me I suppose, I don't test my pH most times.

This last batch I did was basically a no sparge, so I felt as if I could sparge once just to rinse the grain and maybe end up with a wort that's workable.

I could well be wrong, but on my next double batch I believe I'll give it a shot to find out.

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Old 10-22-2012, 07:41 PM   #12
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Maybe I should rephrase a prior comment in that as far as temperature is concerned I'm not worried about tannins.

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Old 10-22-2012, 07:50 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by wickman6 View Post
I batch sparge and I'm not mashing out, as in I dont raise my mash above 170. It's my understanding anything north of that will potentially extract tannins. I actually keep my grainbed around the same temps that I sac rest at usually.

Tannins can also be extracted if pH levels raise over 6 I think. That could be a problem for me I suppose, I don't test my pH most times.

This last batch I did was basically a no sparge, so I felt as if I could sparge once just to rinse the grain and maybe end up with a wort that's workable.

I could well be wrong, but on my next double batch I believe I'll give it a shot to find out.
This sounds like a great experiment. Especially if you're using enough grain and essentially doing a no sparge, you should be able to get at least a good three gallon batch out of it. You could also just throw in a couple of lbs of specialty grains away you go.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:30 PM   #14
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This sounds like a great experiment. Especially if you're using enough grain and essentially doing a no sparge, you should be able to get at least a good three gallon batch out of it. You could also just throw in a couple of lbs of specialty grains away you go.
I have done 10 gal batches, then backed up with another 5. I usually add a few lbs of grain before the last batch but this thread peaked my interest. I usually end up low in gravity on the last one even after the grain addition, so I thought I could just boil longer and just get a smaller last batch.

In my addition of base grain I usually add a bit of specialty as well. I'll probably do the same as before, just shoot for 3 gallons instead of 5. Lawnmower beer!
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:50 AM   #15
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If high grain temperatures caused tannin extraction then decoction mashes would not exist. The tannins come from the high pH as the enzymes that act as pH stabilizers are rinsed away during excess sparging. Highly kilned malts also possess pH lowering due to the toasting of the kernel that keeps tannin extraction at bay.

Personally, I just add the residual runoff directly to my boil pot.

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Old 10-23-2012, 02:43 PM   #16
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If high grain temperatures caused tannin extraction then decoction mashes would not exist. The tannins come from the high pH as the enzymes that act as pH stabilizers are rinsed away during excess sparging. Highly kilned malts also possess pH lowering due to the toasting of the kernel that keeps tannin extraction at bay.

Personally, I just add the residual runoff directly to my boil pot.
The decoction point you make seems reasonable, I wonder if there are tannins extracted. I'll have to study up on that. My thought is that they are in fact extracted but since there is maillard reaction going on, maybe its muted? Also usually decoctions are only a small portion of the grain bill, not the entire mash.

If the entire grainbed gets too warm I think tannins would make up a much higher percentage of the runoff, thus making them more pronounced.

This is all just my speculation of course, I'll read up on decoctions.

I do agree with your pH info, and that's something I should probably measure on these crazy batches I sometimes make.
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:07 PM   #17
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"Homebrewers used to infusion mashing may wonder how a decoction could be boiled without extracting a large amount of tannins and yielding a very astringent beer. After all, when lautering, they are repeatedly told that their grain bed temperature should never exceed 170 °C (77 °C). The key to understanding this apparent discrepancy is understanding when tannins are soluble in wort. Increased heat and increased pH both favor tannin extraction. At lower pH values, such as those found in a thick mash, tannin extraction from grain husks is minimal even at boiling temperatures. At higher pH values — such as those in a grain bed that has been extensively sparged — excess tannin extraction occurs at a much lower temperature.

Decoction mashing inactivates some of the enzymes in a mash. Enzymes are proteins (strings of amino acids) that are folded into a specific three-dimensional shape. The shape of the enzyme determines its function. When heated, enzymes unravel (or denature, in the lingo). Different enzymes denature at different temperatures because they assume different shapes and some are “cross-linked” by sulphur bridges that stabilize their structure. Boiling temperatures are sufficient to denature almost all enzymes and thus boiling the mash inactivates any enzymes that are useful in brewing. In decoction mashing, only roughly a third of the mash is boiled at each decoction and enzymes from the unboiled mash compensate for those denatured in the decoction boil.

Besides boiling of a portion of the mash, decoction mashing involves a lot of stirring and can result in an increased yield for many brewers. In a home brewery, a decoction mash is likely to give the brewer a better yield compared to an unstirred single infusion mash. My efficiency typically jumps by around 5% when I decoct."

Taken from a byo article. Here's the link to it http://www.byo.com/stories/technique...ing-techniques

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Old 10-23-2012, 05:26 PM   #18
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Also usually decoctions are only a small portion of the grain bill, not the entire mash.
Maybe so, but then you would have to justify a "triple decoction." At what point is no longer a "small" portion of the grain bill?
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:28 PM   #19
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"
Decoction mashing inactivates some of the enzymes in a mash. Enzymes are proteins (strings of amino acids) that are folded into a specific three-dimensional shape. The shape of the enzyme determines its function. When heated, enzymes unravel (or denature, in the lingo). Different enzymes denature at different temperatures because they assume different shapes and some are “cross-linked” by sulphur bridges that stabilize their structure. Boiling temperatures are sufficient to denature almost all enzymes and thus boiling the mash inactivates any enzymes that are useful in brewing. In decoction mashing, only roughly a third of the mash is boiled at each decoction and enzymes from the unboiled mash compensate for those denatured in the decoction boil.
Not mentioned is that the enzymes are in the liquid, not so much the solid of the mash. When decocting it is important to pull a generous amount of grain while leaving the liquor-- and thus the enzymes- behnd.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:39 PM   #20
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Not mentioned is that the enzymes are in the liquid, not so much the solid of the mash. When decocting it is important to pull a generous amount of grain while leaving the liquor-- and thus the enzymes- behnd.
Right! And when the decoction is returned to the tun, all the enzymes left in there can go continue to work. The enzymes denatured during the decoction is kept minimal, since most were left behind in the first place. That's why balanced grainbills are important, to make sure there's enough buffering power left in the bulk of a mash.

What I was referring to however is while I'm batch sparging my first beer, I run off and sparge only once. Then I add some grain to the tun, sac rest again with enough volume to no sparge for my second beer.

If I decide to sparge, after collecting enough wort for a full boil on beer number 2, I feel I can get a few more gallons to make a small batch of small beer without worrying about tannins.

My reasoning is this, I haven't sparged the crap out of my grain yet, and I also haven't raised the grainbed over 170. Also, I have some 'fresh' grain in there, with fresh and active enzymes ready to go to work.

I have pulled a third beer a few times before, without a tannin problem. The problem I did have consistently was low gravity. So if I boil longer on beer 3, I can evap more water and get my gravity at the expense of volume.

I don't decoct when I do this method, if I did who knows? Possibly I could get tannins.

The reason I brew this way sometimes is to get more bang for my buck in terms of time spent brewing. I can get 2 awesome beers @ five gallons each and a third mild at around 3 gallons and it takes Mr about an hour and a half longer than a single 5 gallon batch.

With a baby and 2 older kids, my time is very expensive. Lol

I need to make the most of it, and so far, its working out very well for me.
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