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Old 03-02-2012, 06:12 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by sivdrinks View Post
What are the enzymes doing that need stopped? If I pull the bag out and drain/squeeze isn't that enough? I only mentioned water volume because I figured the extra amount with BIAB/no sparge would take care of rinsing the sugars. I'm still new so be gentle!
ayoungrad addressed the technical issues, but to answer your other question: I see no benefit to doing a mashout with a full volume, no sparge BIAB. If you're getting good results without one, you've got no reason to change.
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Old 03-02-2012, 06:42 PM   #22
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I'm confident that mashouts with BIAB do make a difference.

Converting starches to sugars is one thing. But comparing traditional AG mashouts to BIAB mashouts is like comparing apples to oranges. With AG, it's all about stopping enzymatic activity, etc. With BIAB, the mash is heated to 170 to make it more fluid and thereby easier to drain the wort into the kettle. Getting as much wort as possible into the kettle is critical with no-sparge BIAB. Try it some time and you'll see the difference...

This whole argument about whether efficiency can be improved or not but doing a mashout sounds like it would be a good experiment. Mash two batches of grain and keep everything identical except that one gets a mashout and the other doesn't. Then calculate efficiency and see if there is a difference or not. I will try this one day unless someone else beats me to it.

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Old 03-02-2012, 06:55 PM   #23
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Converting starches to sugars is one thing. But comparing traditional AG mashouts to BIAB mashouts is like comparing apples to oranges. With AG, it's all about stopping enzymatic activity, etc. With BIAB, the mash is heated to 170 to make it more fluid and thereby easier to drain the wort into the kettle. Getting as much wort as possible into the kettle is critical with no-sparge BIAB. Try it some time and you'll see the difference...
I understand what you're saying; I just disagree. I'm not sure what "grain bed fluidity" means in this context, and I can't really picture how cooler grain husks would retain more water than warmer grain husks would. Certainly the temperature difference isn't impacting solubility in a way that should be relevant to home brewers.

More importantly, I have run exactly the experiment you are proposing dozens of times. Sometimes I batch sparge with hot water and sometimes with cold. My system is honed in and I hit my numbers every time. I get identical lauter efficiency numbers at 60ºF that I get at 170ºF. You're welcome to whatever opinion you'd like, of course, but I've never seen anything other than conventional wisdom to suggest that grain bed temperature at drain/lauter/bag-removal impacts efficiency.
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Old 03-02-2012, 07:00 PM   #24
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The more controlled way to do this experiment is to first test for sugar concentration at the end of the mash to calculate mash efficiency. Then suspend the bag and time exactly 5 minutes of draining. Measure the volume and gravity. Next, put the bag back into the pot/wort, raise the temp to 170 and repeat the 5 minute hang and measurements.

If the second gravity reading is higher, ramping the temp added more conversion.
If the gravity is all the same but the second volume is higher, the theory of "wort fluidity" is confirmed for now.

My best guess is that any increases in efficiency simply due to raised temps is due to added conversion.

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Old 03-02-2012, 08:11 PM   #25
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When I do a mashout I'll get a few more gravity points but they generally also show up in my FG, so they are mostly unfermentables. Its a good trick for when I want more body.

As for the warmer wort flowing better, the difference in viscosity is negligible and draining occurs nicely either way.

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Old 03-02-2012, 08:22 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven View Post
I'm confident that mashouts with BIAB do make a difference.

Converting starches to sugars is one thing. But comparing traditional AG mashouts to BIAB mashouts is like comparing apples to oranges. With AG, it's all about stopping enzymatic activity, etc. With BIAB, the mash is heated to 170 to make it more fluid and thereby easier to drain the wort into the kettle. Getting as much wort as possible into the kettle is critical with no-sparge BIAB. Try it some time and you'll see the difference...

This whole argument about whether efficiency can be improved or not but doing a mashout sounds like it would be a good experiment. Mash two batches of grain and keep everything identical except that one gets a mashout and the other doesn't. Then calculate efficiency and see if there is a difference or not. I will try this one day unless someone else beats me to it.
+1 on getting more extraction on Mashout; I get about 3-5 OG points w/170 mashout as I begin to heat my mash tun / boil kettle. You gotta heat it anyway?... Also, the whole Denatured enzyme is a redhering in BIAB.
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Old 03-03-2012, 04:35 PM   #27
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Thanks for the collective information, brewed BIAB style this morning and didn't bother w/ a mashout...will report w/ results, but since I have no control experiment, lets just say I'm happy to shortcut the process for a perhaps a few handfulls of grain.

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Old 03-03-2012, 06:15 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bschoenb View Post
+1 on getting more extraction on Mashout; I get about 3-5 OG points w/170 mashout as I begin to heat my mash tun / boil kettle. You gotta heat it anyway?... Also, the whole Denatured enzyme is a redhering in BIAB.
BIAB has tons of variations. Not everyone uses the exact set-up or techniques that you use. As an example... some people even BIAB and mash the night or day before they start their boil because of timing issues, etc. For them, mashing out makes sense.
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:47 PM   #29
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I heard using a mash out helps yeast ferment later on by removing more of certain proteins from the grains as well as higher ABV from natural sugars.

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Old 03-03-2012, 10:12 PM   #30
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For example, if a given bill normally takes 60 minutes to convert at 152F, you can do 30 minutes at 152 and spend 15 minutes ramping up to 168 and it will definitely be done.
I might just try this.
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