Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway - Enter Now!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Batch vs Fly Sparge and the Amount of Grain

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-15-2009, 01:29 AM   #1
1602JJ
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 12
Default Batch vs Fly Sparge and the Amount of Grain

Curious what some of the opinion/facts some of you more seasoned brewers think about fly vs batch sparge and the amount of grain. I have keggles for everything and fly sparge. I am noticing that I am having higher eff with larger grain bills over 15 lbs. 10 and under are significatly lower. Can anyone speak to this. Thanks

__________________
1602JJ is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-15-2009, 04:31 AM   #2
Catt22
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,998
Liked 57 Times on 55 Posts
Likes Given: 51

Default

Generally, for a given batch size your efficiency will be somewhat lower with a larger grain bill (ie higher gravity or OG). Apparently you are experiencing the reverse of this for some reason. Much also depends on how you define efficiency and the accuracy of your volume measurements. Fly sparging by nature is supposed to be more efficient as it is essentially displacement vs. dilution. How large is the efficiency difference you speak of? There are a number of possible variables involved, so it's hard to say that the difference is due to the size of the grain bill alone. Much the same for fly vs sparge. With either you can do it poorly, so the method alone is no guarantee of anything.

__________________
Catt22 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-15-2009, 01:03 PM   #3
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 21,920
Liked 949 Times on 633 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

If I had to guess, in your case it probably has to do with lautertun shape. Large grainbills set up a deep bed and small bills are shallow. Deeper beds in fly sparging are usually more efficient.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-15-2009, 01:44 PM   #4
jldc
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jldc's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 662
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Dead space??

__________________
jldc is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-15-2009, 01:55 PM   #5
SpanishCastleAle
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,384
Liked 29 Times on 29 Posts

Default

I experience something similar...even when I do a max capacity brew (which for my Zapap is only about 14.5 maybe 15 pounds) my efficiency doesn't change (and intuitively you'd expect it to drop at least a little). I think it's mostly due to what Bobby mentioned but the deadspace contributes as well. Any gravity points left in the deadspace represent a larger percentage of a lower gravity brew than a higher gravity brew.

__________________
Early brewers were primarily women, mostly because it was deemed a woman's job. Mesopotamian men, of some 3,800 years ago, were obviously complete assclowns and had yet to realize the pleasure of brewing beer.- Beer Advocate
SpanishCastleAle is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-16-2009, 12:37 AM   #6
1602JJ
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 12
Default

To answer the question on the Eff differece I can hit high 80s with a larger grain bill and with 10# and under I am at 70 and under. I would say a good 15 points. When you say dead space do you mean the space between your screen and the valve. I know on most the pipe comes up and out the side leaving you with a good inch of fluid below that you would dilute with extra fluid to remove the sugars.

For my Mash tun I acutally put the pipe directly out the very bottom so any sugar coming out should go directly into the kettle. I can post a pic if you would like to see.

I cant figure it out.

__________________
1602JJ is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-16-2009, 01:28 AM   #7
Bsquared
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Bsquared's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,809
Liked 55 Times on 51 Posts
Likes Given: 22

Default

Just an Idea, but how are your temps? and how well are you maintaining them?

With a larger grain bill you will have more thermal mass, and thus hold your mashing temp better than a small grain bill. I can't imagine that a drop of a couple degrees would knock you down 15 points, but if you are dropping 10º over the mash, and you come in with your sparge water at 175-180, you might not get a good dilution of your sugar in to the wort and leave a lot behind.

One more thing? How fast are you sparging?

You might be pulling out the wort before the sugars get a good chance to dilute with the small batch, and with the larger batch just because its a larger volume it takes longer and you get more sugars out of the grain bed.

__________________
Bsquared is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-16-2009, 01:38 AM   #8
1602JJ
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 12
Default

As far as temp I am holding pretty well. maybe 2-3 deg at most. and I make sure I sparge pretty slow. About a gallon every 2-4 minutes.

__________________
1602JJ is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-16-2009, 01:44 AM   #9
Bsquared
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Bsquared's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,809
Liked 55 Times on 51 Posts
Likes Given: 22

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1602JJ View Post
As far as temp I am holding pretty well. maybe 2-3 deg at most. and I make sure I sparge pretty slow. About a gallon every 2-4 minutes.
So for a 5 gallon batch you are sparging in 10-20min? I think for fly sparging that is on the fast side. If you are doing 20-40 for a 10 gallon batch thats about right. (in general I fly sparge for 35-60min)

also If you are disturbing your grain bed while sparging, you will mix the layers and dilute your wort.
__________________
Bsquared is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-16-2009, 11:54 AM   #10
SpanishCastleAle
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,384
Liked 29 Times on 29 Posts

Default

Just trying to narrow it down but it sounds like a combination of lautertun shape and sparging too fast. It may the case that the shallower the grain bed, the more the sparge rate affects efficiency.

With your rig it doesn't sound like deadspace is an issue.

How deep is the grain bed in a keggle with just 10# grain?

EDIT: BTW/FWIW, last weekend I did a big 1.100 OG Belgian and this weekend I'm doing a low-ish gravity (for me) lager that should have an OG around 1.047. Most of my beers are bigger than 1.047 and nowhere near 1.100. I got right at 79% Brewhouse on the Belgian so I'll be interested to see what I get this weekend. I'll post it, Sunday prob.

__________________
Early brewers were primarily women, mostly because it was deemed a woman's job. Mesopotamian men, of some 3,800 years ago, were obviously complete assclowns and had yet to realize the pleasure of brewing beer.- Beer Advocate

Last edited by SpanishCastleAle; 10-16-2009 at 11:57 AM.
SpanishCastleAle is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How do you batch sparge without disturbing the grain bed? Beernewb Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 3 06-29-2009 11:54 AM
Batch sparge amount McCuckerson All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 16 06-10-2009 08:34 PM
Batch sparge with finer grain crush eddie884 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 5 09-22-2008 04:22 AM
3rd all-grain...problems with batch sparge Evan All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 8 08-04-2008 02:03 PM
Batch Sparge Water:Grain Ratio Beerthoven All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 6 07-03-2008 04:05 PM