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Old 10-03-2012, 09:12 PM   #1
RoKozak
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Default Batch Sparging and Mash Out?

Is it necessary to mash out when batch sparging? Should I be concerned about the time in-between the first runnings and sparging?

For example, if I mash for 60 minutes and it takes me 15 minutes to drain my first runnings, isn't my mash still going to be extracting sugars for the extra 15 minutes while running off, thus actually mashing for ~75 minutes?

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Old 10-03-2012, 09:17 PM   #2
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Batch sparging is mashing out, as long as your sparge water is 170 (or your grains get to 170 i should say). What temp are you normally sparging with? Some people dont sparge at all, though I do and mash out with that batch sparge.

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Old 10-03-2012, 09:25 PM   #3
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Batch sparging is mashing out, as long as your sparge water is 170 (or your grains get to 170 i should say). What temp are you normally sparging with? Some people dont sparge at all, though I do and mash out with that batch sparge.
Actually, mashing out is different than batch sparging. Mash out is done to denature the amylase enzymes thereby stopping conversion. Hitting mash out temps while sparging does not accomplish this, since the majority of your sugars are in the first runnings. When sparging, mash out is intented to extract more sugar and raise efficiency rather than preserve sugar profile. Honesty, a true mash out isn't neccesary with the small amount of time we're talking about here.
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:26 PM   #4
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Batch sparging is mashing out, as long as your sparge water is 170 (or your grains get to 170 i should say). What temp are you normally sparging with? Some people dont sparge at all, though I do and mash out with that batch sparge.
I sparge at ~170 degrees. I'm more so wondering if the time it takes to drain the first runnings prior to batch sparging actually increases the mash time since the water is still in the grain bed as it runs off...and if that is bad.
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:42 PM   #5
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Actually, mashing out is different than batch sparging. Mash out is done to denature the amylase enzymes thereby stopping conversion. Hitting mash out temps while sparging does not accomplish this, since the majority of your sugars are in the first runnings. When sparging, mash out is intented to extract more sugar and raise efficiency rather than preserve sugar profile. Honesty, a true mash out isn't neccesary with the small amount of time we're talking about here.
I did a poll about batch sparging technique. One of the most popular methods, one which I have adopted after trying a traditional mash out and not achieving the consistency or results I was looking for is

Mash, drain first runnings, first sparge(mash out) with half remaining volume at the temp needed to bring grain bed to ~170, second sparge with remaining volume at ~170 degrees.

What I like about this method is more control. I find that its difficult to raise the temperature of the grain bed to ~170 with all the water and grain still in the MLT, especially with a large grain bill or mashing on the thin side(which is gaining popularity on here).

Also OP, it shouldnt be taking you that long to drain first runnings, one of the many benefits of batch sparging is when you are done vorlaufing open to full flow, no need to restrict the speed with which you collect wort, unlike fly sparging.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:53 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Xpertskir

I did a poll about batch sparging technique. One of the most popular methods, one which I have adopted after trying a traditional mash out and not achieving the consistency or results I was looking for is

Mash, drain first runnings, first sparge(mash out) with half remaining volume at the temp needed to bring grain bed to ~170, second sparge with remaining volume at ~170 degrees.

What I like about this method is more control. I find that its difficult to raise the temperature of the grain bed to ~170 with all the water and grain still in the MLT, especially with a large grain bill or mashing on the thin side(which is gaining popularity on here).

Also OP, it shouldnt be taking you that long to drain first runnings, one of the many benefits of batch sparging is when you are done vorlaufing open to full flow, no need to restrict the speed with which you collect wort, unlike fly sparging.
I agree with the draining, if the OP is having a hard time draining then consider using rice hulls as a filter or evaluate your screen/false bottom as that could be slowing you down.

As for sparging once or twice, if I can fit all the water in one I only do one and split in two only If I can't fit the whole volume. IME I have really not noticed any comparable difference in the final product and still achieve the same mash/Lauter efficiency both ways.
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:21 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by RoKozak View Post
Is it necessary to mash out when batch sparging? Should I be concerned about the time in-between the first runnings and sparging?

For example, if I mash for 60 minutes and it takes me 15 minutes to drain my first runnings, isn't my mash still going to be extracting sugars for the extra 15 minutes while running off, thus actually mashing for ~75 minutes?
1. IMO it is not necesary to mash out
2. The time b/w first runnings and sparging is a concern if your runnings sit and the temp drops and enzyme activity continues. Again IMO if one were to batch sparge w/o a mashout, runnings should hit the kettle w/ a light flame to increase heat and stop conversion.

What you are proposing is fine, but you may want to compensate by heating your first runnings immediatly, thereby "mashing out" in the kettle ....sort of???

The extended time is not that big a deal...mashing times are not that exact...at 60 minutes drain your first batch sparge and add hot sparge water to end the mash....so whats that ... 65 min mash. RDWHAHB
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:21 AM   #8
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Modern grains can achieve full conversion within 30 minutes, according to multiple books I've read.

I've done mash outs and not and I honestly can't tell a difference in my beers. If I was doing it professionally or getting near 1 barrel, I would do so. Plus, just about every time I've done a mash out, I've boiled the amount of water BeerSmith tells me to use (which is 4-8 deg above what it tells me to be at) and I've only gotten as close as 164 deg mash temp in both of my mash tuns I've used in the last year.

So now I fly sparge beginning with water around 180-190, which raises the bed pretty consistently to 168-172, and cools (I take it off the flame) by the time I'm done to about 170-175 and all is good.

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Old 10-04-2012, 05:24 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by wilserbrewer

1. IMO it is not necesary to mash out
2. The time b/w first runnings and sparging is a concern if your runnings sit and the temp drops and enzyme activity continues. Again IMO if one were to batch sparge w/o a mashout, runnings should hit the kettle w/ a light flame to increase heat and stop conversion.

What you are proposing is fine, but you may want to compensate by heating your first runnings immediatly, thereby "mashing out" in the kettle... RDWHAHB
^This! I batch sparge (no mash out) and before I started heating my first runnings, my beers kept finishing drier than I wanted. Now I turn the flame on the kettle as soon as I'm finished draining my first runnings. My FG's are always more in line with what I'm shooting for than they were before I started doing this, and I have the added benefit of boiling a bit sooner.
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilserbrewer View Post
1. IMO it is not necesary to mash out
2. The time b/w first runnings and sparging is a concern if your runnings sit and the temp drops and enzyme activity continues. Again IMO if one were to batch sparge w/o a mashout, runnings should hit the kettle w/ a light flame to increase heat and stop conversion.

What you are proposing is fine, but you may want to compensate by heating your first runnings immediatly, thereby "mashing out" in the kettle ....sort of???

The extended time is not that big a deal...mashing times are not that exact...at 60 minutes drain your first batch sparge and add hot sparge water to end the mash....so whats that ... 65 min mash. RDWHAHB
This definitely makes sense. My issue is that I don't have another larger kettle to keep sparge water heating while also heating my first runnings. I mash out and drain into a bucket to measure how much wort I have, which give me the ability to use my brew kettle to continue heating sparge water.
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