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Old 11-19-2010, 05:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Reelale View Post
Other than BIAB, no-sparge requires recirculating the wort during the entire mash. There is no vorlauf. Well, it is a continuous vorlauf throughout the mash. Without recirculation, you'd get terrible efficiency. And the no-sparge 2 method you describe is really just a batch sparge without draining the first runnings prior to sparging.
What effect does the continuous recirculation have on efficiency? I really don't think it would have any effect. I don't agree that it's needed

Also, if you don't drain the first runnings then you have a no sparge. So I'd say method 2 is not a batch sparge.
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Old 11-19-2010, 05:03 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by broadbill View Post
Further clarification based on what's been discussed in this thread:

So there are two types of no-sparge?

no-sparge 1: mash with your total pre-boil volume, and at end of mash you mix, vorlouf and drain.

no-sparge 2: mash at whatever ratio you like (1.25 qt/lb or whatever), and at end of mash you add whatever volume of water gets you to your pre-boil, mix, vorlouf and drain.

Is this right?
Yeah that's correct. In method 1 you'd either have a VERY looose mash or VERY strong wort. Method 1 is very similar to BIAB. Method 2 is similar to conventional mash methods.
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Old 11-19-2010, 05:13 PM   #23
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What effect does the continuous recirculation have on efficiency? I really don't think it would have any effect.
True. No-sparge efficiency is 100% based on pre-boil gravity and grist absorption. Lowering either increases efficiency.
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Old 11-19-2010, 05:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by AZ_IPA View Post
Highest quality wort as measured by: ? (I'm just curious, not being an a**).

In theory, no sparge produces the highest quality FLAVOR from the wort. The more you rinse the grain, the lower the gravity, the higher the pH, the more you will extract unwanted flavors from the grain. Tannins are the most common problem but there may be other compounds. I really don't have any experience with this. I doubt that it's a major factor. In fact I've had several partigyle beers that were made entirely from second runnings and they tasted great. So I don't think wort quality should be a driving factor in why one would use a no sparge method.
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Old 11-19-2010, 05:56 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by broadbill View Post
This is news to me. I don't understand why mash recirculation is required for no-sparge as they are two separate parts of the brewing process (mash vs. sparge). Also, the main reason to vorluaf is to remove grain particulates/sediments from the runnings before they go into the brew kettle...I would guess you would want to do this regardless of the sparge procedure...even no sparge.



Not according to earlier posters (and hence my question):

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Originally Posted by maida7 View Post
What effect does the continuous recirculation have on efficiency? I really don't think it would have any effect. I don't agree that it's needed
I mis-spoke, sorry. Strike one. While recirculation is not required, combining it with no-sparge would certainly be beneficial as far as wort clarity. I still think most no-sparge systems rely on recirculation during the mash except, of course BIAB. I was projecting my process way too universally.

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Originally Posted by maida7 View Post
Also, if you don't drain the first runnings then you have a no sparge. So I'd say method 2 is not a batch sparge.
You are correct. I just realized that the wort sugar concentration will reach equilibrium and then be drained vs. rinsed. Interesting that Beersmith has an option box for draining the mash tun prior to sparge additions in all of their mash profiles.....Well, that's strike 2.

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True. No-sparge efficiency is 100% based on pre-boil gravity and grist absorption. Lowering either increases efficiency.
Intuitively it seems like recirculation would increase efficiency, even if it were just slightly. But after re-reading Palmer's chapter, I now understand the sugar concentration equilibrium and the concept of draining vs. rinsing. Strike 3, side retired.
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Old 11-19-2010, 06:21 PM   #26
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I don't see any absolute correlation between no-sparge and recirculation at all, except for the fact that Lonnie's Brutus 20 was built that way. Other than that, I'm sticking to my definition of a no sparge -

1. No Sparge - The entire wort is derived from running off a single homogeneous volume in the mash.
...1a. Full volume mash - After dough in, no additional water added to the mash prior to runoff.
...1b. Partial volume mash + "mash out" infusion - A deliberate mash thickness is used, and then the entire preboil volume acheived with an infusion prior to vorlauf and runoff.

Brew in a bag isn't necessarily either of those because it can just as easily be batch sparged by dunking into another vessel of water though I realize the Australians use the 1a method.

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Old 11-19-2010, 06:28 PM   #27
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Brew in a bag isn't necessarily either of those because it can just as easily be batch sparged by dunking into another vessel of water though I realize the Australians use the 1a method.
Whenever I read or write about BIAB, I assume it's the Aussie method. For all I know they invented it.
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Old 11-19-2010, 06:44 PM   #28
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While we're on the subject, why would this be an option in Beersmith? Is this not a given in traditional batch sparging?

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