Electric Brewing Supply 30A BCS Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Alpha Beta ohh ahh!
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-04-2012, 05:34 PM   #1
billdog
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio, Delaware, Ohio
Posts: 78
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 11

Default Alpha Beta ohh ahh!

But seriously..........

I am relatively new to all grain and I am seeing some mash steps that raise this question. The NB all grains directions want a Beta rest followed by an Alpha rest. With my current equiptment I cannot do it in this manner. I can however start at the higher temp for Alpha then step down to a cooler temp (via cold pak) to reach my Beta. Then I batch sparge.

Can anyone tell me the ill affectes or con's to mashing in such a manner???


Thanks,
Billdog

__________________
billdog is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-04-2012, 05:53 PM   #2
Reno_eNVy
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Reno_eNVy's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 6,244
Liked 197 Times on 166 Posts
Likes Given: 68

Default

Going higher to lower doesn't work.... enzymes are incredibly hard to put back together after they've been degraded (i.e. due to higher temps)

Why can't you bump up the temperature by 10 degrees using hot water?



EDIT: Also, love the title.

__________________
Primary: air and sadness =(

Kegged: Cascadian Dark Ale

Bottled: English Barleywine (brewed 9/26/09 -- bottled 5/5/10)


LET'S GO LA!
LA CAMPEONES!
PLAY FOR GLORY, THE GLORY LA!
Reno_eNVy is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-04-2012, 08:28 PM   #3
erikpete18
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 826
Liked 32 Times on 30 Posts

Default

Yeah, adding some boiling water is going to be the easiest way to bump it up. If you start at a water:grain ratio a little below your target and wind up a little above your target after the addition, it shouldn't affect too much.

That being said, especially since you're first starting out, I'd just plan on doing a single infusion mash. There's enough else going on with the switch to all-grain that simplifying things a little can make life so much easier. Plenty of people on here (me included) get by just fine with a simple infusion for a great majority of our beers. What you want to aim for is a temp that hits between the alpha and beta ranges, then alter that slightly to influence the fermentability. For instance, most of my beers I plan to hit 152, right about in the sweet spot between alpha and beta. If I'm doing a big IIPA and want to make sure I'm a little more fermentable, I might drop that down to 148. On the other hand, if I want something with a little more maltiness left over, maybe I bump it up to 156. Once you get to playing around with your system, you can achieve the exact same results as a double step with a single infusion. Rather than altering the time each enzyme spends working at optimal activity, you'll be altering the activity and keeping the time constant.

__________________
erikpete18 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2012, 04:27 PM   #4
billdog
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio, Delaware, Ohio
Posts: 78
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 11

Default

So what your saying it that I should NOT go form 156f then step down to 152f?? the temp range for amalase is 140-160 isn't it? I have heard the adding boiling water thing too, that's pretty easy fix.

__________________
billdog is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2012, 04:34 PM   #5
JeepDiver
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 1,322
Liked 143 Times on 112 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billdog View Post
So what your saying it that I should NOT go form 156f then step down to 152f?? the temp range for amalase is 140-160 isn't it? I have heard the adding boiling water thing too, that's pretty easy fix.
Yes that is what we are saying. If you can't use boiling water to increase, then your better off to just mash at a consistant temp in the middle of the range. And actually for your first grain, unless your using a strange grain bill you will probalby be better off doing that anyway, just to get the basics down.

Most malt is modified enough to not need step mashes these days.
__________________
JeepDiver is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2012, 04:40 PM   #6
BrewKnurd
Formerly discnjh
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
BrewKnurd's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Prairieville, LA
Posts: 2,757
Liked 238 Times on 197 Posts
Likes Given: 112

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billdog View Post
So what your saying it that I should NOT go form 156f then step down to 152f?? the temp range for amalase is 140-160 isn't it? I have heard the adding boiling water thing too, that's pretty easy fix.
Sure, the overall range of amylase activity is in the 140-160 range, but the different amylases are most active, and also denature, at different points. Beta amylase works best in the 140-150 (actually, can go lower than that as well) range. Alpha amylase works best in the 154-160 range. But if you do your first rest in the 154-160 range, you're denaturing your beta amylase that whole time. Meaning if you drop the temp after a high rest, you have very little beta left to do anything, and you've also dropped the alpha below its optimal range. So dropping your temp really is a lose-lose proposition.
__________________

Fake it til you make it.

BrewKnurd is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2012, 04:44 PM   #7
weirdboy
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 4 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,974
Liked 431 Times on 352 Posts
Likes Given: 60

Default

I am not sure you are going to get anything meaningful be stepping between 152 and 156 anyway, that you couldn't do with a single infusion mash.

The temp range for beta amylase is something like 130-150, and alpha amylase 140-160. However there is still some activity at temperatures outside those ranges. It's not like an on/off switch; more like a dimmer.

__________________
weirdboy is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2012, 10:50 PM   #8
BrewMU
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Columbia, MO
Posts: 516
Liked 7 Times on 7 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

If you really can't bump your temp (can't see how that's possible, to be honest) and you want attenuable wort, try mashing between 145 and 150F. Otherwise, mash at a higher temp and live with the enhanced body/higher FG.

__________________
BrewMU is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-11-2012, 12:52 AM   #9
weirdboy
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 4 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,974
Liked 431 Times on 352 Posts
Likes Given: 60

Default

What is the style of beer you are brewing?

__________________
weirdboy is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-11-2012, 11:59 AM   #10
billdog
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio, Delaware, Ohio
Posts: 78
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 11

Default

I've already done 2 already. An american pale and most recently a dry stout. Both of which I used maris otter as the base grain. Both single infusion 152 and 153 respectively. The pale had an efficiency (according to beersmith2) of 78% the stout 69%.

Thanks for all the info and feedback! Much appreciated!

__________________
billdog is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Beta Glucan rest? SpanishCastleAle All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 9 04-15-2014 12:46 AM
Maximizing Alpha and Beta amylase in Step Mashing Kriegerbrauer All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 3 09-19-2011 09:52 PM
BIAB with alpha and beta rest mfraier All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 6 07-08-2011 03:48 PM
Beta Gluten Rest Question ccudc9 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 5 01-15-2011 05:02 PM
another mash temp question alpha/beta killian All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 6 10-03-2007 06:52 PM