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Old 12-09-2012, 11:18 AM   #21
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Don't worry about PH chuck some water at about 160 on the grains - let it sit for an hour and drain it - it's really simple.

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Old 12-09-2012, 12:53 PM   #22
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FWIW, I didn't say it was drastically different just that there is just as good as a chance that is wrong in one way or another than it is right. Your home prices don't change drastically from year to year normally either but your home certainly isn't worth the same amount today as it was 2 years ago. The significance of that changes depends on a lot of factors, maybe you had an addition put on, maybe there was a flood, or a fire, or maybe a roof leak, or tornado. . . So if I looked at a 2 year old appraisal of your home then I would have no way to know if or how it changed, therefore it is best for me to assume that the 2 year old information is mostly worthless. Water is mostly the same. It's entirely possible that the municipality is drawing water from a different location, has updated their treatment facility, or their treatment practices. I have no way to know this. An updated water report is cheap and easy, there is no reason to use the information off that 2 year old report. The OP already said he intends to get something up to date. BTW, don't go around here calling people ignorant, that isn't cool. Your sarcasm and negative attitude is unappreciated.
FWIW, I didn't call you ignorant, and I'm sorry you took it that way. I find your assumption that there is not a likely probability that the municilpality water remained fairly consistent ignorant. (Ig'no-rant, adj., lacking knowledge or experience.)
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:50 PM   #23
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FWIW, I didn't call you ignorant, and I'm sorry you took it that way. I find your assumption that there is not a likely probability that the municilpality water remained fairly consistent ignorant. (Ig'no-rant, adj., lacking knowledge or experience.)
How can you assume it hasn't changed? Your claim is that it is "fairly consistent" which means that you must admit there is some change. All I am saying is that the bottom line is that we have no idea how or if that water has changed and to assume it hasn't would be foolish. So I'm not ignorant but my assumption is? What is the difference? On top of that, the thing is that I'm trying to say don't assume anything. Again the bottom line is that we have no idea how or if that water has changed.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:43 PM   #24
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How can you assume it hasn't changed? Your claim is that it is "fairly consistent" which means that you must admit there is some change. All I am saying is that the bottom line is that we have no idea how or if that water has changed and to assume it hasn't would be foolish. So I'm not ignorant but my assumption is? What is the difference? On top of that, the thing is that I'm trying to say don't assume anything. Again the bottom line is that we have no idea how or if that water has changed.
1. There might be change, but that is far less likely than consistency. Municipal water supplies don't suddenly change. They are managed by engineers and equipment that maintain strict tolerances. Unless the city suddenly decided to move where they get their water from, whether it be an aquifer or an open body source, the water supply remains consistent from year to year. In other words, the pH of the water source doesn't dramatically change without some outside influence or a new source. Very, very few municipalities change their water source or their equipment from year-to-year. To assume otherwise would be ignoring the probability that the source and facility remained the same and there would only be some minute variability from test to test. When presented with evidence of what the supply was within two years and no evidence of any change, it would be ignorant or unwise to assume that the water has somehow changed. Could it have changed? Absolutely. Is it likely that it has changed more than minutely? Not at all. What is foolish is assuming it has changed more than a minute amount. I encourage you to gather historical data from your own municipal source and compare them... Or if you are on well, then get samples every six months or so. I'm sure you will see what I mean.

2. Saying that an individual is ignorant is saying that the individual generally lacks intellegence. Saying that someone's argument is ignorant is saying that they are making an argument without any knowledge or experience in the subject matter. Big difference. If you can't see the distinction, then I can't help you.

3. You say don't assume anything. Sometimes that is true. But when one has an understanding of how a particular thing responds or changes or performs, one can make assumptions (aka, educated guesses or hypothesis) as to the current state. Absent any new data, we can assume the earth will still rotate tomorrow; we can assume that yeast will ferment a sugary solution; we can assume that smoking cigarettes is harmful to one's health. It is all the same thing: Unless we are given evidence that the OP's water source has changed, or that the city engineers changed their sanitation/filtration process, it is only logical to hypothesize that the water is essentially the same.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:59 PM   #25
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Your signature by TxBrew is true now more than ever. I am helping the OP with their water report and adjustments using Bru'N Water. You can move along.

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Old 12-09-2012, 05:28 PM   #26
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Your signature by TxBrew is true now more than ever. I am helping the OP with their water report and adjustments using Bru'N Water. You can move along.
Oh, now that is mature discussion.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:33 PM   #27
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Oh, now that is mature discussion.
What would you like to discuss further? That you were recommending pH5.2 (which has horribly poor buffering capacity) even though the OP doesn't need it for their grain bill? I don't think arguing back and forth about whether or not thinking a municipal water supply has changed in the last two years adds anything to this thread.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:40 PM   #28
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Please enlighten us oh wise one. Rather than just making a general statement, contribute to the discussion. If the acidity of the mash means nothing, then why would brewers ever care about it?
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What would you like to discuss further? That you were recommending pH5.2 (which has horribly poor buffering capacity) even though the OP doesn't need it for their grain bill? I don't think arguing back and forth about whether or not thinking a municipal water supply has changed in the last two years adds anything to this thread.
Settle down and go back to the discussion, please!

The pH of the mash means everything, but the pH of the water means nothing.

High pH water with low alkalinity may mean a low mash pH, while a lower pH water but with lots of bicarbonate may mean a too-high mash pH. So that's what was being said. The water pH information is useless.

5.2 "buffer" doesn't work, quite simply. It just simply can't. That, and it may make the flavor of the beer "off" so it really shouldn't be used except in very rare circumstances. I bought a couple of jars years ago, thinking it was a magic bullet. It was not, and I have now a 3/4 full jar after giving a full one away. I would never recommend using it.

If someone has a halfway meaningful water report, that would go a long way to help figure out how to handle the water.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:53 PM   #29
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5.2 "buffer" doesn't work, quite simply. It just simply can't. That, and it may make the flavor of the beer "off" so it really shouldn't be used except in very rare circumstances. I bought a couple of jars years ago, thinking it was a magic bullet. It was not, and I have now a 3/4 full jar after giving a full one away. I would never recommend using it.
So I bought a tub of pH 5.2 buffer. Why doesn't it work?
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:04 PM   #30
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So I bought a tub of pH 5.2 buffer. Why doesn't it work?
It's a long explanation, one that I can not fully understand. But there are several discussions of the "hows" and "whys" in the brewing science forum. I just know it didn't work at all for me, but not why, and it gave an unpleasant taste to my beer. I found out much later the "how and why", on the forum in the brewing science area.
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