All Grain Advantages? - Page 6

Boerderij_Kabouter · 07-03-2009, 05:00 PM

Diffing opinions. I brewed for a long time for a lot of batches on a crappy system and I can tell you it would have been cheaper for me to start buyinig toward a good, well designed system from the start that to waste the amount of money I did. I didn't say you have to take my advice, but you will be amazed at the cost of your so called cheap system. Not to mention the headaches and screw ups that ensue from having a cobbled together system. You can say that you brew perfectly with your gobbled system, but we all now that even with the best planning and a really nice system, it is still difficult to hit all your numbers dead on. A cheap or poorly thought out system just increases the chance for a screw up and makes the brewday less relaxing and fun.

I would like to see a parts list for everything a brewer needs to go AG for $150. If you can show me that, I will shut up. Also, I don't see the point in brewing 5g's AG. Same time for 10g, twice the beer. Minimal upgrade. In addition, most people can't boil 6-7 gallons on a home stove. I know I can't even with the tips given here.

mithion · 07-03-2009, 05:00 PM

9g Stainless Boiling Kettle... $165
10g Cooler for Mashing... $45
Valve and false bottom for mash tun... $20
Propane burner... $75
5g plastic bucket to hold sparge water... $15
Propane tank... $50
Brewing the best stuff on earth... priceless!

Jk! I think all grain is a bit more expensive than $100 to get the right equipment, but I also think you can do it much much cheaper than $1000 .

As with all previous post, I agree that all grain will produce much better beer that will taste fresher. The control aspect of it is also very nice. I have two pieces of advice for people wanting to make the switch. First, be prepared to invest. As you can see above, this is not a 50 or $100 upgrade to your current extract gear. Be prepared to dish out a few hundred. Second, and probably the most useful, find someone who brews all grain (possibly through your LHBS, you can always find a beer geek there that will be willing to help a fellow homebrewer) and go brew with them to see the entire process. Ask questions about all the steps and then the transition will be much smoother.

Cheers!

cellardoor · 07-03-2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boerderij_Kabouter

I just posted this:

http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Boerderij_Kabouter/Boerderij_Kabouters_Suggested_AG_Starter_Rig/

It explains some of my reasoning. And trust me... that cobbled together system cost WAY more than you think it did. I tried to put together a super cheap workable system for a friend of mine and found out it would actually cost over $700 for a super cheap cooler mod system that he would have been pissed to own by his third brew. Little fittings and cheap coolers add up crazy fast. Most of us just never write these cost down.

While I agree that one should have at LEAST $1000 to build a brewing rig that they would not want to upgrade after their 3rd batch there is a big difference between building a rig and gathering the supplies to go all grain. I spent less than $150 to go all-grain. That is for EVERYTHING that is needed beyond basic extract equipment. That even includes the $40 I spent on your old IC. It also includes the manifold, propane tanks, burners, everything additional I spent to make the jump.

I would love to have a brewing rig but my space constraints and apartment living have forced me to mash in my kitchen and boil outside so a rig is not feasible. Lets say I do want to upgrade my current setup to a nice rig someday almost everything I can use (The keggle, burner, propane tank).

So to say to someone who is contemplating going AG you'll need $1000 or you won't be happy, is in my mind scaring them beyond reason with an unusually high start-up costs. They can spend $150-250 to obtain the basic cooler, keggle, burner equipment and make fine beer and use the majority in a future upgrade. Unless they plan to use stainless march pumps and Blichmans in the future like your rig uses, I doubt they will be upset with the basics needed to go all grain.

Let's face it, when we start this hobby the majority of us don't know how much time and money it will eventually take from us. If I heard before I started that in order to make good AG beer, I'd need to drop a grand on equipment, that would have turned me off big time. I think the majority of us brewers are very happy with our hobbled together system that didn't cost a grand and we still make damn fine beer from it.

**CharlosCarlies** · 07-03-2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

I'm sorry, but this is BS. You DO NOT need a huge rig to brew AG. You don't need a propane burner. Hell, you don't even need a cooler or dedicated MLT. I have done full boil 5 gallon AG batches on my stovetop reusing my old 5-gallon pot from my extract days, a 7.5-gallon turkey fryer pot that I think cost $30, a paint strainer bag, and a 25' wort chiller.

Yall are both right. Some people are happy with K.I.S.S. and others, like myself, are constantly looking for the better/best way to do things because I just can't help myself.

I started out really simple because I was a little overwhelmed w/ the process, but as I got some batches under my belt I found more and more annoying things about my system/process that I just couldn't stand and wanted to improve upon.

Can you brew great beer on the cheap? Yes of course, I don't think he was saying otherwise. I believe he was just putting out a warning that going super cheap at the beginning isn't always the best method for everyone.

cellardoor · 07-03-2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boerderij_Kabouter

I would like to see a parts list for everything a brewer needs to go AG for $150. If you can show me that, I will shut up. Also, I don't see the point in brewing 5g's AG. Same time for 10g, twice the beer. Minimal upgrade. In addition, most people can't boil 6-7 gallons on a home stove. I know I can't even with the tips given here.

This is my system:

Keggle (From CL, we can debate the ethics all day long on here) - $20
SQ-14 Burner - $50
5 gal rubbermaid cooler (I had one laying around so it was free but $30 if you had to buy one) - $0
empty propane tank (From CL) - $5
MLT braid system (FlyGuy's design) - $25
Used IC - $40
Total $140

$170 if one would have to buy the MLT

That is my total cost. My keggle is not that modified or have a drain on it as I currently use my Autosiphon to empty the keggle. It isn't the best method but it does work and I'm happy with it until I upgrade to put a ball valve on it. When I do I would have spent $0 extra than if I had put one on from the start so no money was wasted. Everything else like the autosiphon, hoses, my extract pot used as my HLT was equipment I used to brew extract.

Also even though I bought my IC from you when I was still using extract I included it as an all-grain cost. If it hadn't then I would have spent $100 in additional equipment to go AG and I am happy with my system and when I upgrade to another system I would use everything again with the exception of my 5 gal MLT which I would upgrade to a 10 gal. In my case it did not matter since my MLT was build out of a cooler I had laying around.

Boerderij_Kabouter · 07-03-2009, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardoor

Also even though I bought my IC from you when I was still using extract I included it as an all-grain cost. If it hadn't then I would have spent $100 in additional equipment to go AG and I am happy with my system and when I upgrade to another system I would use everything again with the exception of my 5 gal MLT which I would upgrade to a 10 gal. In my case it did not matter since my MLT was build out of a cooler I had laying around.

I guess this is the sentiment that I lost in my posts. You obviously have thought about all your purchases and made good moves with equipment that you can build on. I am doing the same.

I have not spent or finished my system. I have it designed and I can purchase toward it. This way I do not waste a ton of money like I was doing before. My system will cost a lot, but it is not all at once. With the system I listed, you can start brewing on "the dream system" after you have spent about $250, but it won't be as nice as it is when finished.

The main point is to think before buying so you don't by junk that gets thrown away.

Good to hear the IC is still running strong! Warhawk pride

**wilserbrewer** · 07-03-2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NQ3X

I've got a nice wet blanket here to throw on the enthusiasm.....,
If you don't have the means of growing your own yeast starters, get it. Controlling the health and amount of yeast pitched is crucial.

If you don't have the equipment to control your ferment temperature, get it. There are lots of methods, from wet t-shirts to digitally-controlled freezers.

Your beers will improve dramatically if you learn about managing fermentation and implement solid procedures. Once you get that under control, go ahead and learn about mashing.

Cheers!

Bob

[sigh]

Bob, I strongly agree w/ fermentation temp contol and taking good care of your yeast!

However, I strongly disagree that a newb needs to be concerned about growing his own yeast cultures.

A newb can certainly make a nice beer by pitching an inexpensive dry yeast, No?

And please, dry blankets only.

Cheers,
Mike

**weirdboy** · 07-03-2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

I would like to see a parts list for everything a brewer needs to go AG for $150. If you can show me that, I will shut up. Also, I don't see the point in brewing 5g's AG. Same time for 10g, twice the beer. Minimal upgrade. In addition, most people can't boil 6-7 gallons on a home stove. I know I can't even with the tips given here.

I already gave you a parts list for less than $150. Here is exactly what you need to upgrade from stovetop extract to AG:

7.5 gallon turkey fryer pot $30
5 gallon paint strainer bag $2 (you can get 2 for this price at HD/Lowes/etc.)
A good thermometer for monitoring your mash temps. I use a thermapen. $75
But you can definitely go cheaper.
25' wort chiller $50
2 binder clips (thanks DeathBrewer for this idea) $0.50
Re-using my 5-gallon pot from extract partial boils $0

Just because YOU don't see the point in doing 5 gallon batches doesn't mean other people don't see the advantages, chief of which is you eliminate the need for all those fittings, extra vessels, tubing, etc. that is necessary due to weight and size differences between 5- and 10-gallon batches. Also, there's a lot of people, myself included, who live somewhere that don't have space for a huge HERMS/RIMS/etc. system. A 10 gallon batch is simply out of the question. Keeping it simple and on the stovetop eliminates a lot of unnecessary stuff that you really, really truly do not need to do AG. To do a full boils on the stovetop, I split my pot over two burners and crank them both to the max to get it going.

I find your tone elitist and exclusionary. It's like you are actively trying to discourage people from trying AG unless they are willing to go straight from partial boil extract batches to full boil 10 gallon batches on a dedicated HERMS system. That's completely ridiculous. Sure, it's nice to have, but to say it is necessary is out of line.

Captain_Bigelow · 07-03-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weirdboy

I already gave you a parts list for less than $150. Here is exactly what you need to upgrade from stovetop extract to AG:

7.5 gallon turkey fryer pot $30
5 gallon paint strainer bag $2 (you can get 2 for this price at HD/Lowes/etc.)
A good thermometer for monitoring your mash temps. I use a thermapen. $75
But you can definitely go cheaper.
25' wort chiller $50
2 binder clips (thanks DeathBrewer for this idea) $0.50
Re-using my 5-gallon pot from extract partial boils $0

Just because YOU don't see the point in doing 5 gallon batches doesn't mean other people don't see the advantages, chief of which is you eliminate the need for all those fittings, extra vessels, tubing, etc. that is necessary due to weight and size differences between 5- and 10-gallon batches. Also, there's a lot of people, myself included, who live somewhere that don't have space for a huge HERMS/RIMS/etc. system. A 10 gallon batch is simply out of the question. Keeping it simple and on the stovetop eliminates a lot of unnecessary stuff that you really, really truly do not need to do AG. To do a full boils on the stovetop, I split my pot over two burners and crank them both to the max to get it going.

I find your tone elitist and exclusionary. It's like you are actively trying to discourage people from trying AG unless they are willing to go straight from partial boil extract batches to full boil 10 gallon batches on a dedicated HERMS system. That's completely ridiculous. Sure, it's nice to have, but to say it is necessary is out of line.

You forgot a mash tun. Mine worked out to be about $80. $50 for a 10 gallon rubbermaid cooler and $30 for hardware. Sure you can buy a smaller or cheaper cooler, but I figure buy good and buy once.

**passedpawn** · 07-03-2009, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boerderij_Kabouter

I think $1000 is the minimum amount you should have saved before jumping into AG. Its just my opinion, but I bet you would thank me if you waited.

I strongly disagree 100%. You may not believe this, but I get so much enjoyment out of my ghetto setup. And I make some pretty f'in good beer, if I don't say so myself.

It is important to know the problems before you buy the solution. So, I would ALWAYS recommend that the budding brewer spend as little as possible and brew as much as possible. Learn the process, find the problems with it, then spend $$. That is my opinion.