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-   -   AG questions with 2 separate boils (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/ag-questions-2-separate-boils-22236/)

thedaler 02-15-2007 10:14 PM

AG questions with 2 separate boils
 
Ok, so I decided to switch to AG to save money as well as to improve my beer. I do not, however, have the setup to boil all the wort at once, so I'm going to split it into two separate boils. Most places I've read recommend doing 2 one hour long boils and splitting the hops up among the two boils. However, from what I understand the only reason you need to boil the wort, besides allowing the hops to bitter the brew, is to sanitize the wort and coagulate proteins and create hot break. How long does the wort have to boil to achieve hot break, sanitize it, and coagulate the proteins? What I'm wanting to do is one large boil of wort, with the hops, for an hour, and then a much smaller boil of the remaining wort without hops for less time, just until it achieves the above mentioned requirements. Then I would mix the two in the fermenter and cool them to pitching temperature.

Thanks

Yooper 02-15-2007 10:43 PM

I, too, don't have the means to boil 6 gallons at once all together, and so break it into two boils. It takes 60 minutes after the wort comes to a boil to extract the bittering hops fully. I started with about 7 gallons of wort, and ended up with just a tad under 5. A couple of things to be aware of- you don't want to have your first runnings and second runnings in separate pots because you'll have different specific gravities, and therefore different hops utilization. Last time, I put all my runnings into my primary bucket, and then siphoned into the two different brew pots. This time, I think it'll be easier just to do 1/2 of my first runnings into one pot, and 1/2 into the other, and then when I sparge do the same thing again. That will be easier.

I don't understand what you are saying about a large boil and then dividing it up. The hot break occurs first, then you put the hops in and start your timer for 60 minutes, and then add your flavor hops at like 20 minutes, and then your finishing hops at 5 minutes or flame out, whatever your recipe calls for. If you can fit all of it into one pot, then why do you want to divide it into two pots? I just can't fit it all into my one brewpot on the stove, so until I get my outside propane burner/pot set up, I do it in my kitchen in two pots. When it's cool, I dump them both through a strainer into the primary and then aerate with the aquariam type pump.

Edit- I read your note again, and I think I understand what you are saying. The problem with doing it that way is that your differences in the s.g. of the wort will affect the bittering and hops utilization. It's better to boil them both at the same time on two different burners and divide the hops between them. You can also keep a better eye on how much boil off/evaporation you're getting.

thedaler 02-15-2007 11:34 PM

Well, what I'm saying is, I would only add hops to one of the boils, the larger one. The second boil would have no hops, only the remaining wort from the mash, and I want to boil that for less time, just enough time for the hot break to occur and the proteins to coagulate. Basically I want to do this to save time, so I'm asking how long would I have to boil this "hopless" wort to get hot break and protein coagulation. It would be similar to extract brewing in that I would be boiling only part of the mash with hops, but instead of adding it to like 2 gallons of water in the fermenter, I would be combining it with the rest of the mash.

Yooper 02-16-2007 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedaler
Well, what I'm saying is, I would only add hops to one of the boils, the larger one. The second boil would have no hops, only the remaining wort from the mash, and I want to boil that for less time, just enough time for the hot break to occur and the proteins to coagulate. Basically I want to do this to save time, so I'm asking how long would I have to boil this "hopless" wort to get hot break and protein coagulation. It would be similar to extract brewing in that I would be boiling only part of the mash with hops, but instead of adding it to like 2 gallons of water in the fermenter, I would be combining it with the rest of the mash.

Right- I understand now. I'm not sure about hops utilization, because all A-G recipes assume a full boil. Your hops utillization would be less, due to the higher s.g. of the larger volume. Boiling hops-less wort would have a hot break as soon as it comes to a boil, or shortly thereafter. You'd have a 3 gallon boil of lower gravity, so it would screw up the hopping schedule and your IBUs, as well as a 2 gallon boil of wort with no hops. You'd also have more boil off in the first case, since you were doing the 60 minutes hops addition, so you'd have to account for the lost volume in that. And, if you don't mix up your runnings, you'd have a strange result- very low s.g. added to very high s.g.. I don't see how this could really work.

If you wanted save time, could you boil two pots at the same time, and then cool them and combine them? That seems like it would save time in boiling.

PS- I"m totally guilty tonight of PUI (posting under the influence). If that doesn't make much sense, I'll try to figure it out when I'm sober.

Brewsmith 02-16-2007 01:00 AM

Here's what I do. I have a 30 qt. turkey fryer that won't quite fit all the wort I need for a 5.5 gal all grain brew, especially a higher gravity one. I run 6 gallons into the brew pot, and for a normal brew, about 1-1.5 gallons into a smaller pot. The big pot comes to a boil on the burner and the smaller pot goes on the stove in the kitchen. By the time the hot break happens and everything calms down in the big pot, I can add a quart or so. By 30 minutes into the hop schedule I can have everything in the big pot.

Chairman Cheyco 02-16-2007 01:09 AM

As long as the SG of both boils are the same, you hop utilization will be unaffected for the most part - allowing you to hop only one kettle. You could also divide your hops in two and do two mini-brews and re-combine them in the fermenter, again as long as the SGs of the two are the same.

As far as hot-break goes, it usually only takes about 15 minutes to form. So I'd go about 30 to be safe, for the unhopped kettle.

FlyGuy 02-16-2007 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yooper Chick
A couple of things to be aware of- you don't want to have your first runnings and second runnings in separate pots because you'll have different specific gravities, and therefore different hops utilization.

But wouldn't they balance each other out? The first-runnings pot would have a slightly higher gravity, resulting in a lower hop utilization. The second-runnings pot would have a lower gravity, resulting in a higher hop utilization. The effects negate one other out, don't they? I am just speculating here, so I apologize if this is naive.

Chairman Cheyco 02-16-2007 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyGuy
But wouldn't they balance each other out? The first-runnings pot would have a slightly higher gravity, resulting in a lower hop utilization. The second-runnings pot would have a lower gravity, resulting in a higher hop utilization. The effects negate one other out, don't they? I am just speculating here, so I apologize if this is naive.


If everything was linear, then yes. One would have to do the math to be sure.

Yooper 02-16-2007 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyGuy
But wouldn't they balance each other out? The first-runnings pot would have a slightly higher gravity, resulting in a lower hop utilization. The second-runnings pot would have a lower gravity, resulting in a higher hop utilization. The effects negate one other out, don't they? I am just speculating here, so I apologize if this is naive.

Yes, but he's talking about having the second pot being hop-less, and only boiling it long enough to get a hot break.

Therefore, it wouldn't balance out- you'd still have one pot with lower hops utilization, and one pot with no hops.

FlyGuy 02-16-2007 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yooper Chick
Yes, but he's talking about having the second pot being hop-less, and only boiling it long enough to get a hot break.

Therefore, it wouldn't balance out- you'd still have one pot with lower hops utilization, and one pot with no hops.

Actually, I was interested in your comment about not putting the first- and second-runnings in different pots. I interpretted your message to say that you should combine the runnings (half each across two pots) to ensure that the hop utilization was correct. But does it really matter? I am not sure that it would.


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