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Old 04-01-2006, 07:33 AM   #1
digdan
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Default AG Clarity

My local Home Brew Shop told me that Clarity with AG is determined by the conversion. I would think it was determined by the boil. I would like your two cents.

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Old 04-02-2006, 10:06 AM   #2
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Why would you think it was from the boil. I would think it would be almost exclusively from the mash. As I understand it, haze come from protein that makes it into the wort during the mash. There are ways to reduce this. This is why some people do protein rests. However I think some people look to increase the protein in their wort in order to increase head retention. I'm fairly certian the reason that hefeweissens have good head retention, but alot of protein haze is because wheat husks (which contain much of the protein) are hard to separate from the grain (which is used to produce fermentable sugars). Barley on the other hand is much more easy to deal with, because the protein rich husk is not very soluble, making it much easier for the brewer to obtain fermentable sugars, without all of the unwanted proteins. This may be entirely wrong, but this is how I understand it. I would appreciate some critiques on this . Thanks alot.

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Old 04-02-2006, 11:00 AM   #3
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The boil does affect this. Hot break and cold break are both formed in the kettle (unless you have a counter flow chiller, then its just outside...). My understanding is the rate of cool down (faster is better) aids in causing the coagulation of protiens (cold break) which can easily be left behind in the pot. The hot break is aided by... someone help me here... maybe a roaring boil? Length of boil? not sure on that one.

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Old 04-02-2006, 01:46 PM   #4
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The protein rest converts longer aminoacid chains into smaller pieces. These smaller pieces become soluble and are essential for head retention and yeast nutrition. For well modified malts, most of this has already been done by the maltster. I don't believe however, that the proteins come from the husks. To my knowledge they are part of the endosperm.

Another source of haze could be unconverted starch that makes it into the wort. But since we all mash to "conversion complete", this should not be a problem for clarity.

The hot break is also affected by the PH of the wort. I'm not exactly sure which proteins coagulate during the hot break, I assume that the longer chained proteins coagulate since the shorter ones may not be able to coagulate due to their shortness.

Does anybody know exactly which class of proteins forms the chill haze?

Kai

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Old 04-03-2006, 03:40 PM   #5
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There are several different causes/meanings of "clarity". Mostly, leaving it in secondary will allow LOTS of turbidity to settle out. Most proteins are heavier than water, and will sink. Some trubiditry is caused by long chain carbohydrates- "unfermentable starches". Like pectin, from fruits, causes 'cold haze' and can be lessened with pectinase. And "ice filtering" will remove this, if the beer is filtered at near freezing temps. Adding a tad of dark roasted malt helps here too. Heat speeds up lots of chemical reactions, so some chains get broken, some lengthened during the boil.

Lot's of causes for lack of clarity, everybody is right...

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Old 04-03-2006, 03:51 PM   #6
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My understanding: the chill haze most people complain about that no amount of conditioning will get rid of is caused by starch. This starch would be a result of lautering before conversion was complete. This is totally inherent of the mash.

A good, vigorous boil and subsequent chilling will coagulate and settle out proteins that could also cause haze in the finished product. The difference here is that by cold conditioning you can cause this protein haze to develop and precipitate to the bottom of the bottle (or secondary) leaving a clear beverage.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it until e-smacked by a superior force!

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Old 04-03-2006, 04:16 PM   #7
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You'll note that ENZECO® CHILLPROOF uses papain, which is an enzyme that breaks down protein. Consider yourself smacked.

"A stable, functional enzyme preparation, totally soluble in water, formulated for the brewing industry to prevent storage "chill haze". Produced from selected, purified grades of papain."

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Old 04-03-2006, 04:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david_42
You'll note that ENZECO® CHILLPROOF uses papain, which is an enzyme that breaks down protein. Consider yourself smacked.

"A stable, functional enzyme preparation, totally soluble in water, formulated for the brewing industry to prevent storage "chill haze". Produced from selected, purified grades of papain."
Unless I'm missing something I don't see how that affects starch
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Old 04-03-2006, 05:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron von BeeGee
My understanding: the chill haze most people complain about that no amount of conditioning will get rid of is caused by starch. This starch would be a result of lautering before conversion was complete. This is totally inherent of the mash.
I never thought of this. But I do mash to conversion and see chill haze in my beers. But then again they were all extract brews and I have to chill one of my AG batches to see if there is actually a difference.

So starch starts for fall out of solution when it gets cold?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david_42
You'll note that ENZECO® CHILLPROOF uses papain, which is an enzyme that breaks down protein.

"A stable, functional enzyme preparation, totally soluble in water, formulated for the brewing industry to prevent storage "chill haze". Produced from selected, purified grades of papain."
This could be dargerous, if it breaks down to much of the protein since a lot of the body of the beer is due to proteins in the beer. But body is not something Bud and Co want in their beers anyway .

Kai

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Old 04-03-2006, 05:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser
So starch starts for fall out of solution when it gets cold?
My understanding is that starch won't fall out of solution, but protein-based haze will. I believe once you get starch haze there isn't much in the average homebrewer's arsenal that will get rid of it. I imagine filtering would.
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