Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Winners Re-Re-Drawn - 24 hours to Claim!

Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > 73% efficency without a HLT!
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-03-2009, 07:40 AM   #1
Grimsawyer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 886
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts

Default 73% efficency without a HLT!

Ok, so I was reading THIS thread and thought wow! Over 70% brewhouse efficency without batch sparging or fly sparging? Just mix all of your preboil water together between the boil kettle and the MLT(plus add in what the grain soaks up)... Yeah right. Even after jkarp posted this, "I've NEVER dropped below 70%, and grist seems to have a bigger impact than gravity. I got mid seventies on the last barleywine I did, but 72% on my last wheat. I'm actually doing a raspberry wheat this weekend so it'll be interesting to see how it does." I was skeptical. Today I brewed a Cute Little Hunny Bunny Ale (16lbs 2row, 4lbs flaked corn, 1lb carafoam, 1oz Cascade 8.4 60min 2112 california lager) and got 73% BREWHOUSE EFFICENCY!!! 1.049!!! (post boil volume was 11 gallons, my gear soaks up a quart.) I couldn't believe it. To get that when batch sparging or fly sparging I have to collect 3ish gallons too much on a 5.5 gallon batch on my equpment and boil for 2-2.5 hours to get 79%. If I collect just enough to hit my target volume after the boil I sometimes get between 68% and 71% efficency. PLUS my brew day was about an hour shorter. Does anyone else use this meathod to brew? It's pretty sad that when I mix all the water together that's meant to be in the brew I get a better efficency than when I use fancy sparge techniques... HAHAHAHA!!! Thank you for the inspiration jkarp. I not so sure I would have tried it had you not posted your thread.

__________________

"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. They wake up in the morning and that's as good as they're going to feel all day." -Dean Martin

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlyingBeer
...no sense hauling empty carboys around when full ones take up just as much space. :)
Grimsawyer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2009, 09:26 AM   #2
killian
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: western/central new york
Posts: 1,485
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

I have been working on something similar, but I haven't tried it yet.

__________________

damn I gotta brew something

killian is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2009, 12:47 PM   #3
jkarp
Beer Herder
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jkarp's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Elizabeth, CO
Posts: 2,105
Liked 34 Times on 29 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

And on that raspberry wheat, I tossed in a handful of rice hulls, did a 10 minute protein rest at 120 and then ramp mashed from 145-170 over 90 minutes. Got 74% mash efficiency, and that was with 2 lbs of flaked grains in a 6 lb grist! I'm happy.

__________________
jkarp is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2009, 12:59 PM   #4
The Pol
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,774
Liked 75 Times on 64 Posts
Likes Given: 14

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimsawyer View Post
Ok, so I was reading THIS thread and thought wow! Over 70% brewhouse efficency without batch sparging or fly sparging? Just mix all of your preboil water together between the boil kettle and the MLT(plus add in what the grain soaks up)... Yeah right. Even after jkarp posted this, "I've NEVER dropped below 70%, and grist seems to have a bigger impact than gravity. I got mid seventies on the last barleywine I did, but 72% on my last wheat. I'm actually doing a raspberry wheat this weekend so it'll be interesting to see how it does." I was skeptical. Today I brewed a Cute Little Hunny Bunny Ale (16lbs 2row, 4lbs flaked corn, 1lb carafoam, 1oz Cascade 8.4 60min 2112 california lager) and got 73% BREWHOUSE EFFICENCY!!! 1.049!!! (post boil volume was 11 gallons, my gear soaks up a quart.) I couldn't believe it. To get that when batch sparging or fly sparging I have to collect 3ish gallons too much on a 5.5 gallon batch on my equpment and boil for 2-2.5 hours to get 79%. If I collect just enough to hit my target volume after the boil I sometimes get between 68% and 71% efficency. PLUS my brew day was about an hour shorter. Does anyone else use this meathod to brew? It's pretty sad that when I mix all the water together that's meant to be in the brew I get a better efficency than when I use fancy sparge techniques... HAHAHAHA!!! Thank you for the inspiration jkarp. I not so sure I would have tried it had you not posted your thread.
I get 69% eff. in ProMash with this... but still that is good for the process

BIAB uses one vessel where all of the water is placed there for the mash, the grain is in a grain bag. After the mash it is simply removed from the kettle and the burner turned on to start the boil. Thin mashes can improve the conversion eff... maybe even making up for more than is lost through the lack of sparge in some cases. BIAB has been pretty successful with eff. in the 70s

JKarp has a nice system there, if I were an apartment brewer, Id build that thing and buy some 3 gallon kegs.

I am confused though... you said when you fly or batch sparge you got 79% eff. then went on to say that using this method you get better eff., when you admitted that it went down to 73%??
__________________

The Pol is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-04-2009, 09:39 AM   #5
Grimsawyer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 886
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pol View Post
I get 69% eff. in ProMash with this... but still that is good for the process...
Wierd, I adjusted beer smith to 10.75 gallons to account for what the gear soaks up and I still get 71% I plug in 69% and get 1.047. Do Beer Smith and ProMash use a slightly different equasion to figure that stuff out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pol View Post
...I am confused though... you said when you fly or batch sparge you got 79% eff. then went on to say that using this method you get better eff., when you admitted that it went down to 73%??
Yeah, If I collect a CRAPLOAD of extra wort I can get up to 79%. Then I'm boiling for 2 to 2 and a half hours. If I just collect enough to hit my full ONE HOUR boil volume then I get 68-71ish%. I'm sure if I had enough propane I could get 90% brewhouse efficency, but who wants to spend that much on propane anyways? I figure a few pounds of grain is more cost effective than a full tank of propane. Besides, the more braindead I can make my process the less I have to screw up. Lets face it, does anybody brew without a brew in their hand anyways? LOL!!! I'll be curious on how low the gravity on this beer goes. It'll be a fun one for sure... Maybe I'll have to start adding more crystal malt to keep the gravity up... hehehehe
__________________

"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. They wake up in the morning and that's as good as they're going to feel all day." -Dean Martin

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlyingBeer
...no sense hauling empty carboys around when full ones take up just as much space. :)
Grimsawyer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-04-2009, 10:11 AM   #6
z987k
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
z987k's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Anchorage
Posts: 3,544
Liked 23 Times on 21 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

IF you guys are having that much problems with efficiency, I would highly recommend checking your mash pH. It seems to be something that is often overlooked and yet is oh so important.

That said, I think this goes along with what Kaiser has seen in his batch sparge analysis experiments. According to the results in this graph:



A no sparge batch should be able to achieve roughly 70% eff up to a gravity of about 1.065

I'd recommended reading what Kaiser has found, as it's very informing and might help give you the answer as to why a particular method works.

Batch Sparging Analysis - German Brewing Techniques

__________________
Beer Style Guidelines - Kaiser's Brewing Experiments - American Society of Brewing Chemists - Journal of the Institute of Brewing
z987k is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-04-2009, 01:21 PM   #7
jkarp
Beer Herder
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jkarp's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Elizabeth, CO
Posts: 2,105
Liked 34 Times on 29 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

I do think one thing that helps a bit with this system is there's always a fully complete mashout. Palmer explains a mashout as the difference between pouring warm and cold honey. The mash is quite thin and hot so the wort more easily flows out.

More importantly, I'm 100% with Lonnie on efficiency. My beers are tasting great and even if I was getting 60%, I'd be happy. The additional grain to make up the gravity points between 60% and 80% is pocket change in this small batch system.

__________________
jkarp is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-04-2009, 01:32 PM   #8
The Pol
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,774
Liked 75 Times on 64 Posts
Likes Given: 14

Default

I seem to recall someone here doing tests on cold sparging... I want to say Kaiser was looking into it?

I never saw the outcome, but the idea was being pushed around that the hot vs cold sparge only produced a couple eff. points at best in testing.

My sparges pre HERMS resulted in a grain bed at 150F for the sparge.

Post HERMS it is about 166F and the eff. never changed.

The only noticeable difference I have seen in my own eff. was CRUSH and in MASH THICKNESS. I am sure that my process improvement has in fact resulted in some increases, but those were much less noticeable.

The Barley Crusher helped a lot, and thinner mashing as well.

__________________
The Pol is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-04-2009, 02:27 PM   #9
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,236
Liked 1056 Times on 704 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

I speculate the any real gains found when doing a mashout or hot sparge is really related to that short period of supercharged enzyme activity just before they get denatured. It finishes up the conversion and boosts efficiency. I won't say that hotter mash doesn't make for easier lautering/draining and maybe a couple points of efficiency, but I think it's more related to how it affects conversion.

Pol, I wish a thinner mash boosted my efficiency. It really did drop it by about 5% but I had to do it to be able to recirculate my mash for any length of time.

__________________
BrewHardware.com has a new website. Please check it out and let me know what you think!
New 100% Stainless Steel Heating Elements are IN!
Chugger Pumps, Pump Kits, Camlocks, Sightglasses, Clear USA made Silicone Tubing, RIMS, Electric Install Parts, etc. Did you know we are also now a full service homebrew shop selling malt, hops, yeast (Wyeast), etc?

Bobby_M is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-04-2009, 04:17 PM   #10
The Pol
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,774
Liked 75 Times on 64 Posts
Likes Given: 14

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M View Post
I speculate the any real gains found when doing a mashout or hot sparge is really related to that short period of supercharged enzyme activity just before they get denatured. It finishes up the conversion and boosts efficiency. I won't say that hotter mash doesn't make for easier lautering/draining and maybe a couple points of efficiency, but I think it's more related to how it affects conversion.

Pol, I wish a thinner mash boosted my efficiency. It really did drop it by about 5% but I had to do it to be able to recirculate my mash for any length of time.
Yah, a thinner mash will NOT always increase eff. It depends on what your conversion eff. is already. This is because by increasing the amount of water in the mash, you are losing sparge water... thusly potentially reducing your lauter eff. If your conversion eff. is already maxed, a thinner mash will do nothing but reduce your lauter eff.

Another potential benefit to a thinner mash is that you have more FIRST wort... typically longer and higher volume sparges reduce the quality of the wort. So, by increasing the first wort volume and reducing the length/volume of the sparge, you can better your overall wort quality.
__________________
The Pol is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
82% brewhouse efficency.. oh yea =) Sumo Equipment/Sanitation 0 10-06-2008 01:06 AM
beersmith efficency tab ? beerthirty Brewing Software 3 08-10-2008 06:51 PM
93% efficency Denny's Evil Concoctions All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 12 04-26-2007 05:38 AM
What sort of efficency are you getting? mezman All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 20 08-27-2006 11:30 AM
First AG extremely low efficency mezman All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 14 07-26-2006 05:29 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS