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Old 07-09-2012, 01:53 PM   #1
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Default Long Draw system? Need mixed gas?

I'm hoping to have my keezer in the basement and run the beer and glycol lines through the floor and up to my draft tower. The run might be 12'-15'.
Will I run into problems with over carbonated beer (foam) becuase the CO2 will be difussing into the beer as it trys to push the beer that far up from the kegs? I'm hoping to avoid mixed gas. Maybe I have no choice. Aanybody else run into this? Thanks

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Old 07-09-2012, 03:18 PM   #2
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Have you read this?

https://files.pbworks.com/download/P...Final%20V2.pdf

It gives you an idea of what you need to do to balance your system based upon length of line and height you need to push. One thing that I've seen quite a bit online is that 3# of resistance for 3/16" beverage tubing is generally assumed to be high. If you assume 1.5-2# resistance it might help a bit to get the right number.

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Old 07-09-2012, 03:58 PM   #3
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Get some 1/4 inch or bigger tubing! The resistance per foot goes way down with bigger ID.

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Old 07-09-2012, 04:23 PM   #4
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Hi

You probably will be fine with 3/16 line, 15 to 20 feet is not an unusual level run. With 1/4" line you may need to add a bit of tubing. 40+ foot runs are not uncommon with 1/4".

The next issue will be setting up the lines so they are adequately insulated as they make the run. You might consider running them in PVC pipe to make pulling the foam coverd lines easier.

Bob

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Old 07-09-2012, 04:38 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlisle_bob View Post
15 to 20 feet is not an unusual level run. With 1/4" line you may need to add a bit of tubing. 40+ foot runs are not uncommon with 1/4".
I understood OP's situation as needing 12-15 feet of vertical run, not level run. 12' of vertical run will cancel out half the pressure on the keg right there before you factor in line resistance.

SpartyParty, half the time you hear that the line balancing equations never work out anyway, so I'd just experiment. Maybe just fill a keg with some water and push it out through 1/4" and 3/16" tubing with your expected serving PSI and measure the flow rate at the faucet? Based on that you can figure out what size tubing to buy in bulk.
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Old 07-09-2012, 05:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zachattack View Post
I understood OP's situation as needing 12-15 feet of vertical run, not level run. 12' of vertical run will cancel out half the pressure on the keg right there before you factor in line resistance.

SpartyParty, half the time you hear that the line balancing equations never work out anyway, so I'd just experiment. Maybe just fill a keg with some water and push it out through 1/4" and 3/16" tubing with your expected serving PSI and measure the flow rate at the faucet? Based on that you can figure out what size tubing to buy in bulk.
Hi

... thus the term "level run" in the post..

I do beleive that with 1/4" he'll need more than 15 feet of line. Since it's probably bundled glycoll line, it's not cheap stuff.

Bob
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Old 07-09-2012, 07:32 PM   #7
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Thanks for all the help! The plan was to go with a trunk line like the ones on micromatic.com comes wrapped in vapor barrier, foil, and insulation. the beverage lines (1/4") are wrapped around the glycol lines, see the photo. I won't be pushing beer 12' vertical there will be some horizontal runs in there. assuming my basemnet is 7' and the tower will be 4' from the floor and the kegs will be about 4' off the floor as i will have them in a fridge with the freezer on bottom and fridge on top so my vertical run might no be more than 8' feet or so.

So it sounds like my run should be small enough that I SHOULD be able to tweak the system to work and not have to worry about a nitro/co2 mix...? For those that are wondering I plan on having a pump in a bucket in the freezer below the fridge. Amazing how big these fridge types are. After measuring I should be able to fit 6 kegs and the co2 or a 7th keg.

images-3-.jpg   imagesca137po5.jpg  
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Old 07-10-2012, 02:55 PM   #8
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Another way to look at this:

It takes about 2.3psi to lift water (or beer) on vertical foot. So, if you are lifting the beer 10 vertical feet, you will have to add 23psi just to get the beer to the faucet without any actual flow. A few more psi will be required to make the beer flow at a reasonable rate, so let's call it 30psi.

At 30psi and 40 degrees F, you will be running about 4 volumes of CO2 which is pretty high for most beers. If this were my setup, I would definitely consider mixed gas. You can get a nitrogen tank and regulator at harbor freight for not much over $100 with coupons and the gas is only slightly more expensive.

Adam

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Old 07-10-2012, 03:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamreef View Post
Another way to look at this:

It takes about 2.3psi to lift water (or beer) on vertical foot. So, if you are lifting the beer 10 vertical feet, you will have to add 23psi just to get the beer to the faucet without any actual flow. A few more psi will be required to make the beer flow at a reasonable rate, so let's call it 30psi.

At 30psi and 40 degrees F, you will be running about 4 volumes of CO2 which is pretty high for most beers. If this were my setup, I would definitely consider mixed gas. You can get a nitrogen tank and regulator at harbor freight for not much over $100 with coupons and the gas is only slightly more expensive.

Adam
Sorry, but this is wrong. It takes 0.43 PSI per foot to lift water. One inch of water = 0.036 PSI. The rule of thumb for balancing a keg system is to assume 0.5 PSI per vertical foot.

That's why above I said that a vertical gain of 12 feet would roughly cancel out half his serving pressure. 1/4 inch ID polyethylene tubing has a resistance of roughly 0.5 psi/foot so with 12 feet of line, 12 feet of vertical gain he's looking at a 12psi drop which should be good to go. In practice things might work a little different, sometimes the resistance is less than you think so he may need more tubing to cancel it out, as Bob mentioned.
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Old 07-10-2012, 03:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zachattack View Post
Sorry, but this is wrong. It takes 0.43 PSI per foot to lift water. One inch of water = 0.036 PSI. The rule of thumb for balancing a keg system is to assume 0.5 PSI per vertical foot.

That's why above I said that a vertical gain of 12 feet would roughly cancel out half his serving pressure. 1/4 inch ID polyethylene tubing has a resistance of roughly 0.5 psi/foot so with 12 feet of line, 12 feet of vertical gain he's looking at a 12psi drop which should be good to go. In practice things might work a little different, sometimes the resistance is less than you think so he may need more tubing to cancel it out, as Bob mentioned.
So if my normal serving pressure is say... 4 or 5psi i would need to add .5psi per foot (lets assume about 10 feet vertical) then another .5psi per foot of line resistance... so I could serve it at say 14 or so? Maybe I'm not understanding the math...?

What I'm looking for is it waste of my time to drill a hole in my wall and run line if I'm not willing to spend the money on a gas blender? If there is a chance that i can use only co2 and balnce it out and not have over carbed beer I'm willing to try it and see if i can balance it out. Thanks again!
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