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Old 10-04-2013, 06:31 AM   #1
rhaus27
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Default long draw

does anyone have any experience with long draw draft systems?

i'm trying to determine the proper diameter tubing for a run thats roughly 110ft and glycol chilled. while ive read a lot, most articles and calculators are setup for people with the luxury of being able to vary hose length within a direct draw box.



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Old 10-04-2013, 06:35 AM   #2
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If you haven't already come across this, I think you will need a gas blender. Even without elevation factored I would guess you would be over carbonating with the pressure needed to push the beer.



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Old 10-04-2013, 07:16 AM   #3
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Yeah, I picked up a mcdantim trumix 100. I'll need to send it out to be calibrated once I figure the ins and out of my setup.

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Old 10-04-2013, 07:22 AM   #4
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My question is why are you running the lines that far? Just curious is all I'm actually no help at all as I still only bottle.

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Old 10-04-2013, 03:39 PM   #5
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With the blender you'll want to run 1/4" ID lines, which will put the pressure around 33 psi, which will require 50-60% CO2 depending on beer temp and desired carb level. Without a blender you'd need 5/16" ID lines plus a 3/16" ID choker line. The hard part is going to be keeping 110' of line cold. Are you planning on buying a trunk line or making your own? You'll definitely need to store the cooling fluid in a separate freezer from the beer to get a decent temp differential. This is all assuming a relatively horizontal run. Could be much different if you're going upstairs to a different floor or something.

Here's a couple links that you might find helpful. I'd aim for a 10 sec pint fill time for beer temps under 40°, and longer for warmer temps.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApGb-vIKLq7FdGtzN3BrY2xZSldORzQ2bHVVX0hzaEE#gid=0

http://mcdantim.mobi/easyvols.html

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Old 10-04-2013, 07:20 PM   #6
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I'm trying to push 10 kegs from a self built walkin cooler to my bar. (If anyone needs help or advice on building a walkin from scratch lmk)

The old setup had 4 3/8th product lines, mechanical beer pumps, and straight c02...not sure if they had choker in or not, I haven't completely removed it yet. It had wild beer issues, among others. Typical yield was 80-85 pints per half barrel.

1/4 was what I was thinking, but was unsure with the blender. Good to know.

I bought a gbc-125 Glycol power pack, rated up to 125'. Plan on running 4" PVC as a chase, and using bev-seal barrier (http://midwestbev.com/235-06620-01.aspx) tubing wrapped in moisture barrier and foam pipe insulation.

Due to where it's going the line has to go up 8', over 10' , then down 10' into the basement, across the building and back up 5' to the tap. I'm going to get some exact measurements a little later so I can figure out all the math

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Old 10-06-2013, 11:40 PM   #7
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I took measurements last night and now I've sat down to do the math, I actually figured out a way to shorten the total line run with a little extra demo work .

350 feet above sea level
1/4 poly barrier tubing = .5psi resistance/per foot
3' rise to tap from center of keg = 1.5psi
55' total line length = 24.75 of resistance
38F storage


so base on the calculator above I need, 17.29psi for 'balance' which will over carb my beer...

calculate my blend
http://mcdantim.mobi/easyblend.html

I need 71/29 mix, lets call it 70/30

seems pretty simple, I should be able to tweak it slightly to get the proper fill rate needed.

any thoughts?? ill make sure I take lots of pictures of my DIY trunk line, I hardly found any info on building your own.

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Old 10-06-2013, 11:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhaus27 View Post
I took measurements last night and now I've sat down to do the math, I actually figured out a way to shorten the total line run with a little extra demo work .

350 feet above sea level
1/4 poly barrier tubing = .5psi resistance/per foot
3' rise to tap from center of keg = 1.5psi
55' total line length = 24.75 of resistance
38F storage

so base on the calculator above I need, 17.29psi for 'balance' which will over carb my beer...

calculate my blend
http://mcdantim.mobi/easyblend.html

I need 71/29 mix, lets call it 70/30

seems pretty simple, I should be able to tweak it slightly to get the proper fill rate needed.

any thoughts?? ill make sure I take lots of pictures of my DIY trunk line, I hardly found any info on building your own.
Those resistance figures assume a flow rate of 1 gal/min, which is borderline too fast for average carb levels and 38F. You will likely find that you want a slightly slower pour, which will result in much lower resistance figures. Depending on your desired carb level, you might be able to get away without using the blender, and just using straight CO2. Since resistance decreases as flow rate decreases, the pour won't be much slower at a standard serving pressure than it would be at a slightly higher pressure with the blender.

Edit: Just ran your numbers, and it appears you're shooting for a pretty low carb level (~2.2 vol?). In that case skipping the blender would be bordering on a painfully slow pour, likely taking 16 seconds to fill a pint. Not the end of the world, but not ideal either. You could however use 5/16" ID line, which would give you a ~9 second pint fill time without the blender. Then you could easily adjust from there with a short choker line.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:36 PM   #9
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I would order your stuff from FOXX equipment. Much better prices dude!!!

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Old 10-07-2013, 08:38 PM   #10
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I'm not sure if you meant a UBC chiller?? Whats it's HP??? If you make your own trunkline. You should wrap it first with foil tape, for even cold transfer from glycol lines to product lines, then with moisture barrier vinyl tapen then at least 3/4" wall closed cell foam insulation. 10 product lines, with just 1 glycol supply line and 1 glycol return line is pretty tight. Most suppliers use 2 supply & 2 returns for 10 & up trunklines. But should be able to get away with just the 2 with 10 product lines.
It may be easier to just buy a pre-made trunkline. It cost a little more, but saves a bunch of time and headache!!
Generally, a typical walk-in cooler keg set-up, goes like this. Keg coupler to 3/8" vinyl 5-6ft jumper to wall bracket, then wall bracket out to long trunkline to tap tower, then 3/16" vinyl choker 2-5ft length to faucet shanks for restriction adjustments.
The trick is too properly balance the longdraw trunkline section, so you dont have too use too much or little choker line, and get the desired flow rate without excess foaming issues, this is assuming the product is kept at desired temp.(38F) all the way thru the run from point A to B properly, otherwise, even if all other requiements are met, you will still have foaming issues.
I have installed many set-ups in our pub's and many other bar's & restaurants in our local area over the years, and have experienced just about every problem you can encounter!! If you have any ??? Just let me know, and i will pm you my cell#. I find it much easier too discuss over the phone than a keyboard!!! Cheers!!



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