Fellow homebrewers, meet my new beer engine . . .

it doesn't have to be dissolved in the liquid. if you have a corny keg with air you have 0 volumes of co2. if you have 1 volume of co2, you essentially have the keg filled with co2 and no pressure.

I don't know exactly what you would want but the oxidation in the ale is a good thing, but not for more than like a week. but if you use co2 to push then it's not realistic

but if you could get a way to remove air and replace with co2 on pumps.


can the pump pump co2 from a filled corny instead of using air and use it that way?

like pump co2 from empty corny with co2 and replace the beer in the beer corny with co2 from corny number2?


god I'm confused.,

novafire said:

I had an idea in lieu of using the propane regulator to prevent oxidation. What if you hooked a second keg, purged with CO2, but not pressurized, directly to the gas-in on the beer keg?

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Done it. It works.

wild said:

Done it. It works.

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Cool, figured I was not the first to think of this simple setup.

Great minds think alike!

elmetal said:

it doesn't have to be dissolved in the liquid. if you have a corny keg with air you have 0 volumes of co2. if you have 1 volume of co2, you essentially have the keg filled with co2 and no pressure.

I don't know exactly what you would want but the oxidation in the ale is a good thing, but not for more than like a week. but if you use co2 to push then it's not realistic

but if you could get a way to remove air and replace with co2 on pumps.


can the pump pump co2 from a filled corny instead of using air and use it that way?

like pump co2 from empty corny with co2 and replace the beer in the beer corny with co2 from corny number2?


god I'm confused.,

Click to expand...

The pulling of the beer itself would pull in CO2 from the second corny. It's that simple.

So, what replaces the co2 in the co2 keg? or does it just become less pressurized?

Has anyone who hasn't got an authentic pump/engine but uses the RV pump mount this on the outside of a freezer or fridge?

kniles38 said:

So, what replaces the co2 in the co2 keg? or does it just become less pressurized?

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The pressure valve on the top of the CO2 corny would be open, so air would come in, but the gas fed from the bottom should still stay primarily CO2 for some time.

I would imagine keeping the CO2 keg undisturbed and closing the valve right after pouring a beer would help keep the CO2 and air separated in the corny as best as possible.

Is there any reason that you couldn't solve many of the concerns by storing a volume you could drink over the period of 3 or 4 days? You would need to have an excess of kegs (which I do) to make this happen but why couldn't you brew 5 gallons of beer, split it between three kegs, a gallon, a gallon, and 3 gallons...carb the three gallons as usual and serve on CO2 and then serve the one gallon quantites by opening the relieve valve and pull with an engine or dispensing with gravity. Wouldn't this eliminate the need for cask breathers and second kegs of O2? I have never done this so I guess I am asking more than suggesting. All of my kegs are 5 gallon kegs so I do wonder how this impact things.

Mike

blackcows said:

Is there any reason that you couldn't solve many of the concerns by storing a volume you could drink over the period of 3 or 4 days?

Mike

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I would imagine that would work just fine.

I'm digging this idea and formulating a plan as I read though the thread. One of my favorite things when traveling in Europe is the beer, which is why I started brewing my own. I miss the real ales from England so I want to get something like this set up.

So what do you guys who use the RV pump use for a sparkler? Or do you use a sparkler?

I'm thinking I'm probably going to try doing the mini-kegs thing and mount the RV pump to the top of a small dorm fridge.

I didn't need to put a sparkler on my pump.
If I were to plan to take longer than a few
hours to empty a keg, I'd probably add one.

Thanks to the ideas in this thread, finally got my handpump set up (at least temporarily--i did a crap job building the box and split the wood on top when screwing down the pump!)

The first beer came out perfect--lightly carbonated and delicious. Very much as a cask ale should taste. I'm using a propane regulator to blanket with co2, so we'll see how it goes as the keg gets drunk.

wild said:

I didn't need to put a sparkler on my pump.
If I were to plan to take longer than a few
hours to empty a keg, I'd probably add one.

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sparklers are the things that northerners (in england) attach to the end of a pump to force a bigger head on the beer, and many believe that it totally kills the hop aroma. Not sure what that has to do with taking time to empty a keg?

In any event, I think sparklers are pointless. This is especially true for the RV pump--it shoots the beer out quite well and as you can see in my previous picture you get a nice enough head on the beer with the pump.

Had a cask beer for the 3rd time over the weekend along with my first Firkin pull. I forgot about this thread and love the cheap dorm fridge conversion 5L mini keg idea. Definitely adding this to my list or projects and keeping it in mind during my bar build coming up.

This is my version... Thanks for the cool idea sonvolt!!!

Very cool...how about some picture of a pour?

Mike

You just serving at room temp then??

blackcows said:

Very cool...how about some picture of a pour?

Mike

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Agreed! Very nice! How do you have yours set up on the inside, process, etc? I'm thinking of doing this as well. Thanks!

I have not been brewing lately. Been on the road for work ~ 5 months.

Here is how it will be connected. The black cube has a 2.5"x5" hole in the back, the hose will come out of that and into the back of the cabinet. I have a ceramic hole saw that I can use on the tile if I want to go straight down through the tile.

These are the options I have for serving;

1. At home; Use the engine with my upright fridge. The fridge will have a pass through shank and a beer nut to the shank and a hose clamped to the pump. The CO2 set-up will have LP Regulator (BBQ Grill Type) between the main regulator and the gas in connector.
2. At Events Option 1; 1 5 gal cornie fits inside. Quick disconnect to the beer line then the other connected to the pump. Open the vent or hit it with co2 using a low pressure LP regulator. (Use a keg glove to keep cold)
3. At Event Option 2; Use 1 gal polypins. Connecting the spigot of the pin to the pump. No CO2 required. The pump pulls a vacuum as the poly pin collapses. (see pictures) The Pins are dirt cheap $2.35 each. I like this option the best since I can use ice blankets to keep the beer chilled inside the cabinet. Also gallon pins can be kept in a cooler on ice w/o much hassle.

Hey commonlaw, how did the propane regulator work out for you. I'm in the midst of setting up something very similar, and if you've got some lessons learned to share, it'd be appreciated.

kinnasst said:

Hey commonlaw, how did the propane regulator work out for you. I'm in the midst of setting up something very similar, and if you've got some lessons learned to share, it'd be appreciated.

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sorry for the late reply. Propane regulator seems to be working great (don't use a natural gas regulator as it does not work). Beer has been staying fresh and it doesn't get pushed out of the rocket pump, so not much to complain about. I'm still playing with some things, like what happens if I introduce a little oxygen in the beginning. But the propane regulator definitely seems like the poor man's cask breather. I love having a pseudo cask beer on tap all the time.

Let me know if you have any other specific questions. Build was really easy--just need to figure out what thread fittings you need to get it all connected (and get a regulator that doesn't have the propane part screwed on already--I bought one and for the life of me I could not get it off--had to spend another $20 for a new regulator with no fittings). I have a co2 tank feeding my single tap handle, another keg with a picnic tap, and the handpump through a 3-way manifold. I can pump up the co2 to force carb and the propane regulator still does its thing.

commonlaw, Are you keeping all 3 kegs at the same temp inside the fridge? Or is your hand pumped beer outside the fridge. I'm thinking of doing a similar setup to yours but I'm not sure on the best way to keep my "cask" corny or polypin at optimum temperature. Thanks.

FrickD said:

commonlaw, Are you keeping all 3 kegs at the same temp inside the fridge? Or is your hand pumped beer outside the fridge. I'm thinking of doing a similar setup to yours but I'm not sure on the best way to keep my "cask" corny or polypin at optimum temperature. Thanks.

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All three are in the fridge. It's not quite ideal but when I'm serving other ales I don't mind keeping their temperature somewhat high (~48-52F) too. It's a bit harder when I have a lager on tap, but even then I probably keep the temp in the mid 40s. Generally I think 50-52 is the perfect temp for your basic English cask ale (bitter, mild etc). I would not want my cask outside where it could really warm up, but if your environment stays in the low or mid 50s it could be good. Mine is in a garage where it could easily get into the 60s, 70s or even hotter in the summer, which is just way too warm. I would just shoot for a compromise in temps. As long as it's not ice cold the cask will be good, and it will warm up as you drink it.

commonlaw, could you describe the steps you're taking to allow oxygen into your system? I'm not too familiar with kegging but have all the parts and want to figure in real-ale if I can. I'm on the fence about getting the pump you have, is that required?

14thstreet said:

commonlaw, could you describe the steps you're taking to allow oxygen into your system? I'm not too familiar with kegging but have all the parts and want to figure in real-ale if I can. I'm on the fence about getting the pump you have, is that required?

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Sure thing. It's actually pretty simple. I'm using regular soda/homebrew corny kegs. They have an in and out connector that hooks up to quick disconnects. You can read all about this stuff in the kegging FAQ. You carbonate the keg naturally with sugar. After 2-3 weeks, I chill it then vent it (let the excess co2 out). The beer out connector goes to the RV pump/ghetto beer engine as described in this thread.

The gas in also has a quick disconnect on it. At first I just hooked that up to one of the manifolds of my co2 and stuck a propane regulator in the line. This allows you to keep a blanket of co2 over the top without adding excess co2 or allowing the beer to oxidize. I.E. my co2 tank can be at 14 psi for other beers, but lets in just a tiny amount to the "cask" keg because of the propane regulator.

Now I am experimenting with letting o2 in for the first few pints, maybe for a day or so, then blanketing with co2. The idea being I get a bit of the change you get with cask ale from letting air in, without letting the oxidation totally take effect and ruining the beer before I can drink it. To do this I have just been unscrewing the barb on the quick disconnect that connects with the propane regulator and co2. This lets air from the atmosphere in when I draw beer out. Then I'll just screw the barb back on and open up the co2 flow through the propane regulator to blanket again.

You don't *need* the beer engine but if you don't have something that pumps you need to get the beer out via gravity. You could do this by laying a corny on its side tilted down slightly, and attach a quick disconnect and a picnic faucet or some other sort of faucet. But then it would be harder to chill etc. You can see some people have used those plastic containers with faucets and stuck them in the fridge. I like the pump because I can keep the keg refrigerated a bit and it is a bit more like a real beer engine. Someday I'll get a real English one, but then I'll need a bar to mount it to, etc., and they are pricey. As described in the thread, this thing costs like $30 so its not too much of a layout.

commonlaw said:

You don't *need* the beer engine but if you don't have something that pumps you need to get the beer out via gravity. You could do this by laying a corny on its side tilted down slightly, and attach a quick disconnect and a picnic faucet or some other sort of faucet. But then it would be harder to chill etc. You can see some people have used those plastic containers with faucets and stuck them in the fridge. I like the pump because I can keep the keg refrigerated a bit and it is a bit more like a real beer engine. Someday I'll get a real English one, but then I'll need a bar to mount it to, etc., and they are pricey. As described in the thread, this thing costs like $30 so its not too much of a layout.

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I just ordered the pump. For me, it's well worth $30 to give it a try and should integrate with my existing kegerator setup well. I actually think the pump looks nice in commonlaw's setup (and others) and it's much cheaper than a real beer engine. Granted, it would be even cheaper to use gravity.

When you mount the pump to a box I recommend mounting it somewhat forward of center. Mine is basically in the center and it doesn't really reach my drip tray. I need to redo the box anyway for other reasons, but this might save some people trouble especially if they are integrating it into a kegerator or other existing setup.

ok co2 is heavier than o2...when the keg is filled you purge all the air out with co2 and seal the keg as usual. you let it sit to naturally carb. once it is ready you release the pressure and hook up the engine and open the release valve and pump out the goodness you have created.....

ok would there not always be a layer of c02 in the keg until the last pint laying on the beer to not allow o2 to effect it? or am i assuming it is some sort of super layer and really will blend with o2 over time? mad scientists please reply?

either way I'm making one for festivals and camping!!!!!

jldesign said:

ok co2 is heavier than o2...when the keg is filled you purge all the air out with co2 and seal the keg as usual. you let it sit to naturally carb. once it is ready you release the pressure and hook up the engine and open the release valve and pump out the goodness you have created.....

ok would there not always be a layer of c02 in the keg until the last pint laying on the beer to not allow o2 to effect it? or am i assuming it is some sort of super layer and really will blend with o2 over time? mad scientists please reply?

either way I'm making one for festivals and camping!!!!!

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Hmmm, well, I'm not a mad scientist but I think you might be onto something with your gas blend theory. Also, some of both gases will likely blend into the beer. Mad scientists...need more info.

For those who used the Valterra, did you use 1/4" ID beverage line and did that fit on the barb on the pump or do I need to get 5/16"?

FrickD said:

For those who used the Valterra, did you use 1/4" ID beverage line and did that fit on the barb on the pump or do I need to get 5/16"?

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I used 3/8" ID.
If it were under serious pressure, I would go to 5/16" ID.
As it is, 3/8" ID is G2G.

I put together a beer engine setup and I totally ripped off commonlaw's setup (thanks). I won't be able to use it until next week earliest (cask is conditioning) so no real ale pics yet. I'd love to try to make my own pump handle with pump clip and everything but I'm a bit nervous I'll destroy the Valterra pump trying to remove the plastic handle that comes with it. Please post if anyone has success with that.

Here's a pic of the setup.

FrickD said:

I put together a beer engine setup and I totally ripped off commonlaw's setup (thanks). I won't be able to use it until next week earliest (cask is conditioning) so no real ale pics yet. I'd love to try to make my own pump handle with pump clip and everything but I'm a bit nervous I'll destroy the Valterra pump trying to remove the plastic handle that comes with it. Please post if anyone has success with that.

Here's a pic of the setup.

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looks awesome! Your box is much classier than mine... still haven't gotten around to re-doing mine.

if i force carb a keg like usual with co2....what would happen if i used this hand pump (with the pressure release open like a keg primed keg?

the beer would be kicked in 24-48 hours? would it cause over carb pour or nothing but pouring properly carbed beer? my thought is keg on the go (from my pre-carbed stock) without the need for co2 for camping etc?

any ideas without me testing?

jldesign said:

if i force carb a keg like usual with co2....what would happen if i used this hand pump (with the pressure release open like a keg primed keg?

the beer would be kicked in 24-48 hours? would it cause over carb pour or nothing but pouring properly carbed beer? my thought is keg on the go (from my pre-carbed stock) without the need for co2 for camping etc?

any ideas without me testing?

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If the beer is at the proper C02 level (not overcarbed in the keg) then I see no reason why that wouldn't work. The functionality of the hand pump really isn't that different from the standard party taps people use on Sanke kegs. Keep in mind though, it won't be cask conditioned and will still have the short shelf life of cask conditioned beer. Not a bad idea for camping though.

FrickD said:

If the beer is at the proper C02 level (not overcarbed in the keg) then I see no reason why that wouldn't work. The functionality of the hand pump really isn't that different from the standard party taps people use on Sanke kegs. Keep in mind though, it won't be cask conditioned and will still have the short shelf life of cask conditioned beer. Not a bad idea for camping though.

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exactly! im thinking i can take a keg and run without the need for anything but hand pumping. now for the portable keg hauler project.....

So I have a question has anyone else tried collapsible water containers like you would use for hiking? I noticed one guy made a setup like that.

On a side note about real ale I thought you actually do your secondary in the "cask" so there would be no need for additional priming sugar unless you were doing a recipe that called for more carbonation.

portable keg haulder complete with engine done...tried a pale ale fully forced carbed from my kegerator...works but WOW the engine causes the standard level of co2 ber to make a HUGE beauty of a foamy head (looked exactly like a nitro pour) beer tastes fine and also maybe even brings out the faded hops a bit. did i say HUGE HEAD.... party in two weeks will be the kickoff use i have a small session beer i'm carbing for it to only 1 volume or 1.5 and give that a try. a fully carbed keg will work just fine you just have to let the head settle a bit... after that it'll be keg primming with the engine.. had to try it out

Valterra Pump Update: I've been using the pump for several months now.

It's holding up well enough- but in all honesty, it's getting to be a real PITA.

It dispenses about 1 ounce per pump... do the math.

-Looking for something else to take its place.-

sounds like you need a real beer engine. just more $$. but it looks cooler and generally dispenses 1/2 pint (10oz) per pull.

chucke said:

Valterra Pump Update: I've been using the pump for several months now.

It's holding up well enough- but in all honesty, it's getting to be a real PITA.

It dispenses about 1 ounce per pump... do the math.

-Looking for something else to take its place.-

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