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Old 12-08-2012, 09:06 PM   #1
bctdi
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Default Bottling from keg gassing with co2

I keg my beer, but sometimes I want to save a few bottles.I would like to start gassing my bottles with co2 before filling them.My thought was to maybe make something that would make a carbonator cap fit snugly onto the top of the bottle like a rubber stopper. Then hookup my co2 to it and vent the cap till all the o2 is removed, then fill with beer for maximum shelf life. Has anyone tried this , or has anyone made something that makes gassing with co2 easy and cheap? The other option would be to just make a tube that hooks up to the co2 and just run it down into the bottle and turn on the gas. So if you gas your bottles before filling, how do you do it?

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Old 12-08-2012, 11:05 PM   #2
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I'm not sure if this is in your budget but I have a Blichmann beer gun. It hooks to your keg so you can bottle right from the keg, and you can also purge the bottle with co2 before filling with the beer gun. Lots of people have them and love them!

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Old 12-08-2012, 11:38 PM   #3
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Have a read through this sticky http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/we-n...eer-gun-24678/

What you describe is not necessary. Both beer and CO2 are heavy and will displace the oxygen in the bottle. The first bit in the bottle using this tool will be foam. Foam = beer + CO2 This will push the oxygen up before the beer starts filling the bottle. When full to the top pull out your BMBF and squirt in more foam. With this tool you get beer when under pressure and foam when not its pretty simple. A few pages in you will find a video of someone doing it. And all will make sense. People who have beer guns and counter pressure fillers stop using them after trying this tool, it way simpler to use. If you don't believe me watch some blichmann beer gun and counter pressure filler videos to and compare.

IMO Hardest/Most chance for screw ups to easiest/least: beer gun -> counter pressure -> BMBF.

I made mine for $2 and use an party tap i already had.

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Next: Irish Red Ale, Mild, BC Pale, Scotch Ale, Helles, Pils
Planning: Bombardier clone (The real ale cask version, not that sh!te in the bottles)
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:37 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DroolingNeoBrewery
Have a read through this sticky http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/we-n...eer-gun-24678/

What you describe is not necessary. Both beer and CO2 are heavy and will displace the oxygen in the bottle. The first bit in the bottle using this tool will be foam. Foam = beer + CO2 This will push the oxygen up before the beer starts filling the bottle. When full to the top pull out your BMBF and squirt in more foam. With this tool you get beer when under pressure and foam when not its pretty simple. A few pages in you will find a video of someone doing it. And all will make sense. People who have beer guns and counter pressure fillers stop using them after trying this tool, it way simpler to use. If you don't believe me watch some blichmann beer gun and counter pressure filler videos to and compare.

IMO Hardest/Most chance for screw ups to easiest/least: beer gun -> counter pressure -> BMBF.

I made mine for $2 and use an party tap i already had.
Yes, I have used that for years, and it does work great , but I do believe that gassing with co2 is better for maintaining freshness over the long term. Breweries gas their bottles 2 or 3 times before filling. Why do they do that? Is it because they don't use counter pressure? I'm not really sure. The only reason I bottle is to keep some of my higher gravity beers for long term... Like 4-5 years, so I want max freshness , but not going to spend $85 on a beer gun if I can do the same thing for under 10 bucks.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:00 PM   #5
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I not sure what the big boys (BMC) do but small craft breweries often use a multi head counter pressure filler (does 2 or 4 or 6 at once) by hand. there a lots of brewer blogs where start ups discuss the woes of bottling. One thing I have learned researching my own real micro brewery is bottling no matter how you do it unless you have a $100,000 fully automated bottling line SUCKS BALLS!!! My understanding of those bottling lines is they are just counter pressure fillers with conveyor belts and sensors. CO2 pressure followed by beer, no real purging. Why would they bother, CO2 displaces O2 and pushes it up so any CO2 in the bottle will be on the bottom where the beer is going in and remain as a blanket on top of the beer as it fills, pushing the O2 out at the same time.

When breweries bottle their beer in Canada they put a best before date (I don't know if they do that in the states) that date is typically 6 months after the bottling date (some put both). They are not intending it to last years, or even a year they are intending you drink it ASAP. They are also intending that the beer be stored in cold conditions as much as possible (even though that only happens in private liquor stores that care about product quality, that's a completely different issue).

Even so there are people on that sticky that have stored beer bottled with this tool for over a year with no issue, and I don't believe there is any oxygen left in the bottles that I fill this way. There is beer and foam over flowing over the top when capped. Where is all this oxygen coming from? (where as beer that is bottle conditioned has a head space with oxygen in it left on purpose!)

Also most stuff that is meant to cellar for long periods even today is bottle conditioned, not force carbed. I don't think many breweries that bottle condition are bothering to purge with CO2 before filling but I could be wrong about that. Even if you did it would be hard to ensure that the oxygen stays out unless you are pushing flat beer using a CO2 system similar to a bottling gun.

If you really want to do this post 5 http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/we-n...78/#post241821 shows a diagram of an added tire valve with a bicycle pump attachment hooked up to CO2. I think this is a waste of time and CO2. CO2 here is $35 for 5 pounds so I treat it as more valuable then the beer its self!

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Next: Irish Red Ale, Mild, BC Pale, Scotch Ale, Helles, Pils
Planning: Bombardier clone (The real ale cask version, not that sh!te in the bottles)
P1: Chocolate Oatmeal Stout P2: Pear Wine P3: Air P4: Oxyclean
Keg 1: Stout Stout Keg 2: Dead Intruder Mailbock
Bottled: Lots

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Old 12-09-2012, 07:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DroolingNeoBrewery View Post
I not sure what the big boys (BMC) do but small craft breweries often use a multi head counter pressure filler (does 2 or 4 or 6 at once) by hand. there a lots of brewer blogs where start ups discuss the woes of bottling. One thing I have learned researching my own real micro brewery is bottling no matter how you do it unless you have a $100,000 fully automated bottling line SUCKS BALLS!!! My understanding of those bottling lines is they are just counter pressure fillers with conveyor belts and sensors. CO2 pressure followed by beer, no real purging. Why would they bother, CO2 displaces O2 and pushes it up so any CO2 in the bottle will be on the bottom where the beer is going in and remain as a blanket on top of the beer as it fills, pushing the O2 out at the same time.

When breweries bottle their beer in Canada they put a best before date (I don't know if they do that in the states) that date is typically 6 months after the bottling date (some put both). They are not intending it to last years, or even a year they are intending you drink it ASAP. They are also intending that the beer be stored in cold conditions as much as possible (even though that only happens in private liquor stores that care about product quality, that's a completely different issue).

Even so there are people on that sticky that have stored beer bottled with this tool for over a year with no issue, and I don't believe there is any oxygen left in the bottles that I fill this way. There is beer and foam over flowing over the top when capped. Where is all this oxygen coming from? (where as beer that is bottle conditioned has a head space with oxygen in it left on purpose!)

Also most stuff that is meant to cellar for long periods even today is bottle conditioned, not force carbed. I don't think many breweries that bottle condition are bothering to purge with CO2 before filling but I could be wrong about that. Even if you did it would be hard to ensure that the oxygen stays out unless you are pushing flat beer using a CO2 system similar to a bottling gun.

If you really want to do this post 5 http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/we-n...78/#post241821 shows a diagram of an added tire valve with a bicycle pump attachment hooked up to CO2. I think this is a waste of time and CO2. CO2 here is $35 for 5 pounds so I treat it as more valuable then the beer its self!
$35 for 5 lbs is way expensive...I just paid $35 for 20 lbs 3 weeks ago and I thought that was a bit high. As far as my beer goes, I wouldn't even think twice about it if I planned on drinking these beers within 6 months, but the only ones I bottle are the barleywines and belgians I make, which are generally in the 9% to 11% abv range. I would like to be able to keep a few to try over the years to see how they change. I have listened to podcasts where brewers talk about freshness issues and have resolved to double and triple gas the bottles just prior to filling, but these were higher abv belgian styles in 22 oz bombers, so I think the intent for those was long shelf life. I know that the standard procedure when kegging beer is to purge with co2 before the beer ever goes in, then purge again when finished, so I was thinking why not take the same approach with bottling since they are both a very similar vessal with the exception of size. To be honest I really don't know the absolute answer on gassing bottles or not gassing, but just want to give those beers the best chance at surviving as long as possible as I can. That setup with the tire valve is exactly what I'm looking for, cheap enough and looks pretty effective too. I did start looking at that thread , but it's huge, so a lot of info to scan through. Thanks for the info too.It's really great to be able to bounce ideas off of this huge wealth of brewing knowledge and come away with something useful
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:41 PM   #7
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If your ageing these for along time maybe build that tire valve in and use the tool to bottle primed flat beer. That way you get rid of the O2 and have added stability of the yeast being active in the bottle for a short while. If your not going to touch it for months or longer it shouldn't matter how long they take to carb up.

I think the only way to be sure the bottle has been completely purged is to fill it with sanitizer and use CO2 to push the sanitizer out (probably want that to be though a small output tube rather then spraying in your face )


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$35 for 5 lbs is way expensive...
There are gov fees and health regulations that make CO2 that touches food stuff far more expensive. Its mostly per cylinder, so the cost doesn't go up that much for 5 or 15 more pounds of gas. I did not know this when I bought the tank....
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Next: Irish Red Ale, Mild, BC Pale, Scotch Ale, Helles, Pils
Planning: Bombardier clone (The real ale cask version, not that sh!te in the bottles)
P1: Chocolate Oatmeal Stout P2: Pear Wine P3: Air P4: Oxyclean
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DroolingNeoBrewery View Post
If your ageing these for along time maybe build that tire valve in and use the tool to bottle primed flat beer. That way you get rid of the O2 and have added stability of the yeast being active in the bottle for a short while. If your not going to touch it for months or longer it shouldn't matter how long they take to carb up.

I think the only way to be sure the bottle has been completely purged is to fill it with sanitizer and use CO2 to push the sanitizer out (probably want that to be though a small output tube rather then spraying in your face )




There are gov fees and health regulations that make CO2 that touches food stuff far more expensive. Its mostly per cylinder, so the cost doesn't go up that much for 5 or 15 more pounds of gas. I did not know this when I bought the tank....
Sad but true, I have been brewing almost 4 years now, but have never bottle conditioned a beer yet. I am planning a beer similar to orval soon, and will use brett to carb in the keg. The whole reason I got into kegging was to avoid bottling in the first place.....someone once said "bottling sucks" , and I believe it.Kind of ironic that now I'm looking to bottle from my kegging setup, but only about a 6 pack per batch at the most.I have a really good barleywine on tap right now that I would love to taste in about 2 years. So I guess I don't mind a little overkill on these bottles since it's only 4-6 per batch. I saw some 1/8 inch od ss tubing on McMaster Carr website for about 8 bucks a foot. I may buy a foot of it and make a fitting to hook up to my co2 tank to purge my bottles with just prior to filling. Maybe modify that tire valve setup you linked me to so the co2 goes to the bottom of the bottle and works it's way up as I purge.
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:00 AM   #9
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well your determined to do it, so I guess all you can do now is build it and try . Post picks I wanna see this thing. I guess it will be a long time before we know if it makes a difference

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Next: Irish Red Ale, Mild, BC Pale, Scotch Ale, Helles, Pils
Planning: Bombardier clone (The real ale cask version, not that sh!te in the bottles)
P1: Chocolate Oatmeal Stout P2: Pear Wine P3: Air P4: Oxyclean
Keg 1: Stout Stout Keg 2: Dead Intruder Mailbock
Bottled: Lots

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Old 12-12-2012, 06:41 AM   #10
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The owner of the LHBS here filters, carbonates, and bottles with his kegging setup for a fee. He built his own counter pressure bottle filler, but he's VERY secretive about it. I can drop off 5 gallons of room temp beer today and pick it up in 48hrs fully filtered and carbonated. When I asked him about his process/setup he wouldn't show me his homemade bottle filler, won't even tell me anything about it other than he built it himself, and won't talk about carbonation or temps.

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