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Old 10-27-2011, 08:03 PM   #1
pan_tiques
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Default Will K-Meta (Campden) kill e. Coli in Cider?

Hey! My first post!
Some awesome friends of mine are re-building a ciderpress I bought back in the '80's and it's almost ready to use. I've been collecting apples like crazy...not being particularily selective about which ones were picked off the tree and which ones were collected underneath. Now I find out that there is the potential for e. Coli because of the animals who come and eat the fallen apples and poop under the trees.
Even GOOGLE has NO reference to whether Campden Tablets will kill e. coli. so I turn to you guys. Well...?????? Tell me I don't have to throw away 18 boxes of apples!

Pan_tiques



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Old 10-27-2011, 08:49 PM   #2
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I don't know if Campden tablets or other metabisulfite products will kill E. Coli bacteria. However, I think thoroughly washing the apples should greatly reduce the quantity, if any, of E. Coli bacteria present on them.

While I would hate to see all the apples thrown away, I would be more upset if someone were to become ill from consuming tainted apples or cider.

Pasteurization might be a viable option. Most, if not all, commercially available ciders are pasteurized for safety and health reasons as well as to prevent spontaneous fermentation of the cider by wild yeasts found on the fruit.

In Iowa, for example, we have local University Extension offices that can answer agriculture-related questions such as yours. You might want to look for a similar resource in your area for a more expert opinion.



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Old 11-12-2012, 11:16 PM   #3
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No need to worry. Fermentation will kill any bad stuff that might be in the apple juice.

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Old 11-13-2012, 01:38 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levifunk View Post
No need to worry. Fermentation will kill any bad stuff that might be in the apple juice.
In my opinion, that is some pretty bad advice.

Wash all the apples before grinding / pressing them. Use a large cooler, fill it with water (10 gallons?), add StarSan per the directions on the bottle (1 ounce to 5 gallons of water), then add the apples. let them sit in the StarSan for at least 30 seconds. Do not rinse the apples at all. Quarter the apples before pressing. This will let you examine them and get rid of bad apples at this time. I would not use any apples that have been broken open.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:46 AM   #5
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It won't survive fermentation man. Abv tolerance of e. coli is 3.5%. Fermentation is harsh on microorganisms. Just throw a good starter in and you should be fine. Don't toss them

That being said, just because it won't hurt or kill you doesn't mean it's ideal to have e.coli infected apples. There is still the fact that it may affect taste before it's killed off by the natural sanitizer the yeast makes (ethanol). Washing them is still good practice.

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Old 11-13-2012, 06:25 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UpstateMike View Post
In my opinion, that is some pretty bad advice.
In my opinion, you should do some research.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:51 PM   #7
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It won't survive fermentation man. Abv tolerance of e. coli is 3.5%. Fermentation is harsh on microorganisms. Just throw a good starter in and you should be fine. Don't toss them

That being said, just because it won't hurt or kill you doesn't mean it's ideal to have e.coli infected apples. There is still the fact that it may affect taste before it's killed off by the natural sanitizer the yeast makes (ethanol). Washing them is still good practice.

Not only ABV, but pH.
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielbt View Post
In my opinion, you should do some research.
If you want to introduce deer and bird shizit into your cider, go ahead.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter View Post
Oh, and get a hydrometer. Psychic brewing is great and all, but hard numbers get rid of MUCH of the guess work.
"No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities." ~ 1 Timothy 5:23

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In Bottles / Drinking:
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:07 PM   #9
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Well to weigh in (or is that a way in?) took a google search and here is what I found from one study.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2180/3/17
"Results
Growth at 37°C of E. coli O26:H11, O88:H21, O91:H21, O111:H-, O113:H21, O116:H21, O117:H7, O157:H7, O171:H2 and OX3:H21, was found to occur at pH higher than 4.0. When the strains were challenged to acid tolerance at pH as low as 2.5, viability extended beyond 8 h, but none of the bacteria, except E. coli O91:H21, could survive longer than 24 h, the autochthonous E. coli O91:H21 being the more resistant serotype. No survival was found after 24 h in Luria Bertani broth supplemented with 12% ethanol, but all these serotypes were shown to be very resistant to 6% ethanol. E. coli O91:H21 showed the highest resistance among serotypes tested.

Conclusions
This information is relevant in food industry, which strongly relies on the acid or alcoholic conditions to inactivate pathogens. This study revealed that stress resistance of some STEC serotypes isolated in Argentina is higher than that for E. coli O157:H7. "

Or basically if you are going to do a high alcohol cider - just doing juice I think maxes at 9% abv - then that should work, as should a acid or 2.5% for 24 hours- not 30 mins as noted above. Again, apple juice while acidic, I think is in the 5% range.

Lastly as to preservatives (K-meta or Sorbate) these usually inhibit growth, but don't nesc kill the bacteria. They certianly don't kill yeast. Also you could try pasturization, but that would require more research on e.coli to determine if it is the bacteria, or left over toxins that are the problem. I guess you best move at this point assuming after 3 week syou've not done anything would be the star san (acid based cleaner) and get a ph reading.

Assuming you've made the cider - pasturize it.

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Old 11-13-2012, 09:40 PM   #10
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The mediums in these studies were broth... a high protein and fat medium, which e. coli love and thrive on. I wonder what these studies would be like in a medium in which the bacteria weren't necessarily multiplying and thriving on, such as a simple cider or a simple water-sucrose solution?



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