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Old 08-06-2012, 04:59 AM   #1
TimpanogosSlim
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Default Wheat beer yeast for ciders? Banana and clove esters?

I've searched a bit but there seems to be no single really handy search query to find out if many people have done this.

What about an esterous wheat beer yeast in cider?

I am planning, when i get a round tuit, to brew a 1 gallon batch of an experiment I'm calling "buckwit". I've got an 11g packet of wb-06 for the job, which is more than twice as much as a 1 gallon batch needs, even pitched directly into the wort.

A cider with banana and clove going on could be good! And a gallon of apple juice is not expensive.

My house seems to be maintaining a wretched 75f this summer, and humid, which is a travesty since i live in a desert. I can wrangle a cooler fermentation chamber, but i also have a basement closet that is in the low 70's.

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Old 08-06-2012, 11:47 AM   #2
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Used WB-06 in a cider before, no real noticeable esters came from it. The main difference I noticed was that, compared to identical batches of ale and lager yeasts, it maintained more CO2 in solution and had a slightly longer finish.

Contrary to popular belief yeast esters don't actually come from the yeast itself. But rather the the wort/must being used. The yeast highlights and brings out the already present flavors. The flavor profile you are reading about is likely referring talking about beer wort, which can have banana and clove flavors depending on the brew. Apple juice however, will probably not have any clove or banana notes to it unless you have done some serious apple research and testing and have strict control over the base blend. Another possibility would be to add small amounts of those ingredients to the primary and then have the yeast highlight them. But, if you're going to do that I would just suggest adding them to the secondary to get the same results with more control.

So, yes, it will work fine. Just not in the way you think.

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Old 08-06-2012, 12:47 PM   #3
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I have used a White Labs liquid hefeweizen yeast and was asked by a couple friends if I had added banana to my cider and said it had great taste. Also, recently used a liquid White Labs Belgian yeast and definitely notice an esthery profile. These were all made with storebought juice and nothing more than apple juice and yeast. Not sure about the conflicting info. Alot will say different yeasts have little to no difference with cider. I will disagree. For what it's worth, these two examples I gave were both liquid yeasts.

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Old 08-06-2012, 12:56 PM   #4
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I meant to add that I don't let my cider ferment to ~1.000 either. I like it sweeter and I don't backsweeten unless I feel the need. I rack and cold crash around 1.02.

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Old 08-06-2012, 09:09 PM   #5
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I may have to try this with the next batch of graff I make....


-Kingboomer

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Old 08-06-2012, 10:17 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBreton View Post
Used WB-06 in a cider before, no real noticeable esters came from it. The main difference I noticed was that, compared to identical batches of ale and lager yeasts, it maintained more CO2 in solution and had a slightly longer finish.

Contrary to popular belief yeast esters don't actually come from the yeast itself. But rather the the wort/must being used. The yeast highlights and brings out the already present flavors. The flavor profile you are reading about is likely referring talking about beer wort, which can have banana and clove flavors depending on the brew. Apple juice however, will probably not have any clove or banana notes to it unless you have done some serious apple research and testing and have strict control over the base blend. Another possibility would be to add small amounts of those ingredients to the primary and then have the yeast highlight them. But, if you're going to do that I would just suggest adding them to the secondary to get the same results with more control.

So, yes, it will work fine. Just not in the way you think.
Curious. I was not under the impression that there is any amyl acetate in malt. I do know that it's very easy to make for both plants and humans, and my chemist friend warns me that there are other naturally occurring esters that smell and taste like amyl acetate except many times stronger.

I'm not sure what causes clove-like odor or flavor. At least I'm assuming it's not eugenol that people are getting in witbier.
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Old 08-06-2012, 10:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JtotheA View Post
I meant to add that I don't let my cider ferment to ~1.000 either. I like it sweeter and I don't backsweeten unless I feel the need. I rack and cold crash around 1.02.
My dry yeast batch stopped at 1.004 if I recall correctly. Those combined with different juice base clearly accounted for the difference in sensory perceptions. Darn, now I'll just have to brew more batches to narrow it down
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Old 08-06-2012, 11:10 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by LeBreton View Post
My dry yeast batch stopped at 1.004 if I recall correctly. Those combined with different juice base clearly accounted for the difference in sensory perceptions. Darn, now I'll just have to brew more batches to narrow it down
I usually brew with dry Notty and dry S-04. In my area, my LHBS's stock all sorts of the White Labs vials so I've done some experimenting with different varieties of them. I wonder if there is a difference in the end result between using dry yeast versus liquid in a vial. It seems like there shouldn't be but I wonder. I hate it when I have to brew more batches!
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Old 08-06-2012, 11:14 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by TimpanogosSlim View Post
Curious. I was not under the impression that there is any amyl acetate in malt. I do know that it's very easy to make for both plants and humans, and my chemist friend warns me that there are other naturally occurring esters that smell and taste like amyl acetate except many times stronger.

I'm not sure what causes clove-like odor or flavor. At least I'm assuming it's not eugenol that people are getting in witbier.
Perhaps you could encourage the creation of amyl acetate by fermenting at warmer temps than I did (mid 60s) which tends to increase the volatile acidity of cider. Additionally, I've found that not using nutrients in cider can cause certain tropical notes to be formed. I'll definitely be interested in your results!
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Old 08-06-2012, 11:52 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBreton View Post
Perhaps you could encourage the creation of amyl acetate by fermenting at warmer temps than I did (mid 60s) which tends to increase the volatile acidity of cider. Additionally, I've found that not using nutrients in cider can cause certain tropical notes to be formed. I'll definitely be interested in your results!
Interesting wrt nutrients. I've seen some people (e.g. the skeeterpee guy) imply that nutrient starvation can lead to sulfur hydroxide production (rotten egg smell) but the "rhino farts" discussion in the big apfelwein thread leads one to believe that it doesn't happen with all strains of yeast. And edwort is of the opinion the apple juice contains ample nutrients.

Dunno when I'll get around to it. I also need to do something with the ginger beer plant sachet i recently received, and I'm planning a belgian wit this weekend, assuming i finish my fermentation chamber on friday.

On the other hand, how hard can it be to rehydrate a third of a packet of wb-06 in the bottom of a 1 gallon jug, dump 3L of TreeTop on top of it, install an airlock, and shove it into a 75f closet? maybe I'll start it tonight.
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