washing apples for wild yeast cider

If I were to pick an apple from the tree, and wash it, could i still use the wild yeast from the apples skin to make a good batch of wild yeast apple cider?

You could do this:

Peel half the apple and put the skin in a 24-32 oz plastic bottle filled 1/2 with apple juice, shake and cap it. Wash the other half of the apple and do the same in a separate bottle. Check daily as the bottles could bloat and make a mess; degas as needed. You may want to try this w/several apples and bottles for better results. Keep them in a cool dark place and practice good sanitation with everything.

After a week or two, smell the juice (actually, when you degas you can get a good smell). Any mold, bad smell, etc might mean skip the labor and use a packet of yeast. If it started to ferment (pressure build up), smells like cider, and looks good, then you can pitch it as a starter. I’d start off doing 1 gal batches in the beginning… pitching the above into 1 gal of apple juice.

I’ve never done this but have always wanted to try it. Post your results, good luck

timmy_appleseed said:

If I were to pick an apple from the tree, and wash it, could i still use the wild yeast from the apples skin to make a good batch of wild yeast apple cider?

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Yes, there is yeast inside the apple as well as on the skin. It may not result in a good cider however.

You should definitely be careful with this, as Fructose and pectins can lead to larger amounts of methanol production, especially with a poorly attenuating yeast strain and a chance for infection. Methanol is turned into formaldehyde in the liver and then destroys the optic nerve. It takes a large amount of this, however I think the conditions you are describing would favor larger methanol production. So don't drink all of it in one night, unless u hVe the ability to raise the temp up to about 172 or so and get rid of it....

Scottkb said:

You should definitely be careful with this, as Fructose and pectins can lead to larger amounts of methanol production, especially with a poorly attenuating yeast strain and a chance for infection. Methanol is turned into formaldehyde in the liver and then destroys the optic nerve. It takes a large amount of this, however I think the conditions you are describing would favor larger methanol production. So don't drink all of it in one night, unless u hVe the ability to raise the temp up to about 172 or so and get rid of it....

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Wow, I was not aware; apparently adding pectin enzyme, fermenting at a high temperature, and aiming for an abv above 12% increases the risk of methanol production. Also, some fruit juices are naturally high in methanol (apple juice can have 0.2-0.3% while juice from pulp can be 2 to 3 times higher).

Though the negligible amount produced and its effect is arguable, I’ll keep a stricter eye on temps and research more on using wild / weaker yeast strains. Thanks for the post Scottkb

i CAnn stil se

Heard that methanol is not really an issue in the amounts possible when cider brewing. It's even naturally present in small amounts in fruit apparently. Probably not a bad idea to have a dedicated thread to it somewhere, even if just to take away people's concerns.

Lol, methanol fears. These seem to pop up every now and then. Completely unfounded for two reasons:

1) Cider has minimal methanol in it, even using pectic enzyme and high temps the ratio of ethanol and methanol is such that the ethanol would poison you long before the methanol reached dangerous levels.

2) Ethanol and methanol are competitively inhibitory in your system, meaning ethanol actually reduces the toxicity of methanol. Ethanol is in fact used in the treatment of methanol poisoning.

dinnerstick said:

i CAnn stil se

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Thanks to your coke bottle glasses!

LeBreton said:

Lol, methanol fears. These seem to pop up every now and then. Completely unfounded for two reasons:

1) Cider has minimal methanol in it, even using pectic enzyme and high temps the ratio of ethanol and methanol is such that the ethanol would poison you long before the methanol reached dangerous levels.

2) Ethanol and methanol are competitively inhibitory in your system, meaning ethanol actually reduces the toxicity of methanol. Ethanol is in fact used in the treatment of methanol poisoning.

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If I ever go blind (from methanol or otherwise)... my remedy will be ethanol too .. lots and lots of ethanol.

Definitely all correct, wasn't bringing it up as a fear as much as something to know about when making cider, because even though it is not enough to kill you it is not the most desirable flavor. Most of my understanding about methanol comes from distilling books, not cider/beer books, where it is a little more dangerous, as it actually comes out as a much purer solution of methanol and needs to be seriously considered and avoided. Cider away!

LeBreton said:

Lol, methanol fears. These seem to pop up every now and then. Completely unfounded for two reasons:

1) Cider has minimal methanol in it, even using pectic enzyme and high temps the ratio of ethanol and methanol is such that the ethanol would poison you long before the methanol reached dangerous levels.

2) Ethanol and methanol are competitively inhibitory in your system, meaning ethanol actually reduces the toxicity of methanol. Ethanol is in fact used in the treatment of methanol poisoning.

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Scottkb said:

Definitely all correct, wasn't bringing it up as a fear as much as something to know about when making cider, because even though it is not enough to kill you it is not the most desirable flavor. Most of my understanding about methanol comes from distilling books, not cider/beer books, where it is a little more dangerous, as it actually comes out as a much purer solution of methanol and needs to be seriously considered and avoided. Cider away!

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Never heard of enough methanol in cider to effect the taste. I'm in total agreement that it's a serious consideration when distilling however, nobody wants to be sipping on the heads and tails.

I will give it a try in a few months, when i have the chance to collect come fresh apples. until then i will try to ferment some raisons as a starter and create some cider form that i guess.

I highly doubt you'll get something good. Here's why. What a lot of people don't realize is that apple orchards pressing their own cider that DON'T go to town cleaning their equipment end up with a yeast culture on the equipment itself. When they press cider, before pasteurizing and preserving it, there's a lot of wild yeast floating in there. THAT'S what you want. If you just buy whole apples from an orchard, even if they're unwashed, you aren't going to have a lot of yeast.

Unless you're really lucky, you're going to have just as much bacteria if not more, fighting over fermentables as you have yeast. Wild fermentation also takes a REALLY long time and when it's all said and done, you most likely will end up with a batch of nastiness.

I wanted to go bottle some of my stuff today but it didn't quite look ready, but I drove all the way out to the farm and didn't want to waste the trip. So I got some of the apples from last season, which we still have hundreds of kilos of, but didn't have any yeast packets left. They had a nice layering of yeasty dust on them, so I figured I'd try a spontaneous fermentation. I got out the nice ones, no spots and bruises, rinsed them slightly, and cut 'em up and mashed them. Added some pectic enzyme, some yeast nutrient, and now I guess all it needs is a good dose of patience (but where did I put that?). I shall keep thee informed.

You could always add a couple cups of your existing batch to this one. Should be plenty of yeast in that to get it going.

divi2323 said:

You could always add a couple cups of your existing batch to this one. Should be plenty of yeast in that to get it going.

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The OP isn't me though. And isn't the key thing about spontaneous fermentation the suprise/gamble part of it?

Nogmaals said:

The OP isn't me though. And isn't the key thing about spontaneous fermentation the suprise/gamble part of it?

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I suppose it's exciting to some . Not trying to dream crush, but if I put that much time into pressing and creating, I don't like to jeopardize all my hard earned work by making ten gallons of vinegar. . I also like being able to reproduce the sweet nectar of the heavens in the unlikely event I make a truly award winning cider

You know, most people don't know the difference between apple cider and apple juice, but I do. Now here's a little trick to help you remember. If it's clear and yella', you've got juice there, fella! If it's tangy and brown, you're in cider town. Now, there's two exceptions and it gets kinda tricky here...
-Ned Flanders

Scottkb said:

the ability to raise the temp up to about 172 or so and get rid of it....

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Methanol (bad alcohol) boils at 149° F.
Ethanol (good alcohol) boils at 172° F.

So if you look to go evaporating your methanol at 172° F, you'll wind up with NA cider. And wouldn't that be a bloody shame?