Snail Cider

harden152 · 01-13-2011, 03:41 AM

O.K. Noob with a slow and I mean slow fermentation. I pitched 2 re-hydrated packets of Red Star Champagne yeast on 12-6-10. I waited about a week and it looked like nothing was happening. The primary was in the basement at about 61 deg. so I brought it into upstairs bath at about 70deg. Still nothing after 2 more days. Re-pitched dry red star champagne yeast on 12-15-10. I then waited another week and checked. Still nothing. I waited about three more days and checked again. Nothing happening. I took the primary back down into the basement and left it. Christmas and New Years came and went, nothing happening. I figured (sorry I have to say this) I was going to have to throw it out. I've read many posts advising not to do this. Anyways, I finally got around to dealing with this juice tonight 1-12-11. I opened the lid and it was cloudy (started fairly clear) and i could smell alcohol. I took a reading and it was down to 1.050 from a start of 1.062. I put the lid back on and set it back in its spot. Will this be any good? Why so long to get started?

-6 gal. Indian Summer apple cider
-6 campden tabs
-3 tsp. pectic enzyme powder
-3 tsp.anti-oxidant powder
-4.5 tsp. acid blend
-1.5 tsp. tannin powder
-1.5 tsp. energizer powder
-8 cups of pioneer sugar
initial sg 1.062
temp: 62deg.

gratus fermentatio · 01-13-2011, 12:11 PM

If you waited at least 12 hrs between sulfiting & yeast pitch, and you areated well, and your juice is preservative free, my guess would be low PH. Not sure what your "anti-oxidant powder" is, but I'm thinking it's likely either ascorbic acid (vitamin C) or citric acid. Combined with the added acid blend, that's likely enough acid to stress the yeast.

Take a hydrometer reading & see how far along the fermentation is. If you have an acid test kit, even just the PH strips (for wine) will do, test it & see where the PH is. If the fermentation is close to being done, I'd let it be. If not & the PH is indeed too low, you could try either adding boiled & cooled water, or calcium carbonate to reduce acid. The only way to be certain is to test it. Regards, GF.

**CidahMastah** · 01-13-2011, 12:31 PM

I am with gratus: Just from the hip - I think your ferment is slow because you added all that acidity. Pasteur is a robust strain and it is working hard and getting beat up.

With all your acidity you better hope for a malolactic secondary fermentation to chill the acids out. Don't add camden at your next rack. I would:

least intrusive approach
1. rack it - do not add camden.
2. top it off (water if you don't have ascorbic acid free cider) and air lockit.
3. let it sit for about 2-3 more months and hope for a malolactic fermentation (or introduce one).

most intrusive approach
1. rack it - do not add camden.
2. split it between two new carboys (may 5 gallon each?) and add more cider to top off (to reduce acid levels) and air lockit.
3. repitch some yeast in each
4. rack in 3-4 weeks (to remove from the majority of the lees), test ph if still high acid (low value), let it sit for about 2-3 more months to mellow and/or hope for a malolactic fermentation (introduce one).

As a general rule I would limit acid additions when you make a cider. Unless the just is ridiculously insipid with a very low acid PH. Also - I would only use malic acid, since it is the only acid that naturally occurs in apples. Acid blend has tartaric, malic anc citric. It is better suited for wine use, in my opinion. The malic acid is what makes cider well... cider. Not the end of the world, just sayin'

harden152 · 01-13-2011, 01:19 PM

Thanks for the replies. I'll test ph and go from there. I was following a recipe from a book I bought at LHBS. It's called "Mary's Recipes" and has a lot of winemaking recipes in it. The guy told me the anti-oxidant powder was Sodium Metabisulfite from LD Carlson. I think that this might be the problem. He also admitted he had not made cider but said, "some people he knew had made cider using these recipes". I did not know about this forum then and have since discovered it. Talk about a load of info.

**CidahMastah** · 01-13-2011, 01:43 PM

Well glad you found it - loads of good people on here.

I would say, from my perspective the recipe is a little busy. I would leave out most of those additives and go with:
Cider
Yeast nutrient
camden (kmeta)
Sugar - corn sugar to your desired alc%
Tannin (optional)
Wine yeast (1118 is proven for me, but cotes de blanc works well, and I am trying several new ones this year including hte wyeast cider liquid yeast)

If the antioxidant power is metabisulphite, that seems like there is a crap ton of it for 6 gallons, thought I am not sure if it lists a strength. You see, you added camden (= potassium metabisulphite) at 30PPM with six tablets (it would have been good to stop here with meta additions). Then you went again and added anitoxident powder (sodium metabisulphite) at 3 tsp, which is a ****load. I don't know the strength of the NA-Meta, but I would guess you are easily up in the 150+PPM or maybe even 250PPM+ range for free SO2. That would also inhibit yeast productivity. I suspect you are much higher than that in actuality.

Conclusion: I think you sulphited the snot out of your cider, perhaps added a little too much acid and the yeast are suffering.

You may want to remove some of the free SO2 in there to help get your cider going. If you decide to, you can usually remove about 20-30PPM with a very rough racking (rack between two containers and aerate the heck out of it). I would rack soon and be rough, splashing the must to help back off some of your free SO2.

Sadly, I must say, be wary of LHBS people when it comes to cider. I have yet to find one with good knowledge. They know beer. They give confident answers about cider, but usually bad advice.

Cider is a living animal, you have to go by your must sugar value and PH. You can't simply get away with doing a recipe from a book, unless you use store bought juice and the sugar and acid levels are consistent. Cider sugars and acid levels are never constant from year to year.

Not busting on you at all - you were given bad advice. But if your cider isn't great - just know there is a lot of room for improvement on the next batch

**waddsworth** · 01-13-2011, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CidahMastah

Well glad you found it - loads of good people on here.

I would say, from my perspective the recipe is a little busy. I would leave out most of those additives and go with:
Cider
Yeast nutrient
camden (kmeta)
Sugar - corn sugar to your desired alc%
Tannin (optional)
Wine yeast (1118 is proven for me, but cotes de blanc works well, and I am trying several new ones this year including hte wyeast cider liquid yeast)

If the antioxidant power is metabisulphite, that seems like there is a crap ton of it for 6 gallons, thought I am not sure if it lists a strength. You see, you added camden (= potassium metabisulphite) at 30PPM with six tablets (it would have been good to stop here with meta additions). Then you went again and added anitoxident powder (sodium metabisulphite) at 3 tsp, which is a ****load. I don't know the strength of the NA-Meta, but I would guess you are easily up in the 150+PPM or maybe even 250PPM+ range for free SO2. That would also inhibit yeast productivity. I suspect you are much higher than that in actuality.

Conclusion: I think you sulphited the snot out of your cider, perhaps added a little too much acid and the yeast are suffering.

You may want to remove some of the free SO2 in there to help get your cider going. If you decide to, you can usually remove about 20-30PPM with a very rough racking (rack between two containers and aerate the heck out of it). I would rack soon and be rough, splashing the must to help back off some of your free SO2.

Sadly, I must say, be wary of LHBS people when it comes to cider. I have yet to find one with good knowledge. They know beer. They give confident answers about cider, but usually bad advice.

Cider is a living animal, you have to go by your must sugar value and PH. You can't simply get away with doing a recipe from a book, unless you use store bought juice and the sugar and acid levels are consistent. Cider sugars and acid levels are never constant from year to year.

Not busting on you at all - you were given bad advice. But if your cider isn't great - just know there is a lot of room for improvement on the next batch

I would agree with this. I had an instance where I called my LHBS to find out why my cider seemed to keep fermenting after 4 weeks, and if I could just go ahead and bottle. They told me that my sulfite had killed my ale yeast, and that whatever wild yeast was originally in the cider is what had been fermenting it, and that I should head on in to buy another pack of yeast. There's so much wrong with that, I don't even know where to begin.

As for your issue, I would say its the excess sulfite.

gratus fermentatio · 01-17-2011, 12:36 PM

"Antioxidant powder" is sodium metabisufate? If this is so, there's your problem. CidahMastah is right, you sulfited the snot out of it. Splash racking/areation is the ticket, maybe the yeast in the mix will take off after areation, but to be certain you might want to repitch, especially since the yeast in there has been stressed; it might give you off flavours. Regards, GF.

**CidahMastah** · 01-17-2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waddsworth

I would agree with this. I had an instance where I called my LHBS to find out why my cider seemed to keep fermenting after 4 weeks, and if I could just go ahead and bottle. They told me that my sulfite had killed my ale yeast, and that whatever wild yeast was originally in the cider is what had been fermenting it, and that I should head on in to buy another pack of yeast. There's so much wrong with that, I don't even know where to begin.

As for your issue, I would say its the excess sulfite.

It sucks when the LHBS people lead you on. You are right, that dude had now effin' clue. If anything, the wild yeasts would be toast and the commercial (stronger) ale yeast would be active. Wild yeast strains are pretty wimpy. He wanted another yeast sale.

I don't mind if they don't know, just don't tell me lies

!!

harden152 · 01-17-2011, 02:08 PM

Appreciate the advice everyone. I'm pretty new to this and don't know a lot about the different ingredients. Cidah Mastah, I split it between 2 carboys (rough racked it, splashing on walls of carboy) and added some apple juice and pitched in rehydrated ec 1118 (It's what I had available) . It's happily bubbling away now. Gave a little taste test while I did and it was drinkable. I haven't made it anywhere to get the ph strips to test ph. What is a good starting range? Just wondering for next time.