Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway - Enter Now!

Home Brew Forums > Wine, Mead, Cider, Sake & Soda > Cider Forum > Secondary fermentation vs bulk aging vs bottle aging

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-11-2009, 04:10 PM   #1
jaginger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 482
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default Secondary fermentation vs bulk aging vs bottle aging

I'm on my second batch of cider and I'm looking for a little explanation of the techniques that can be used after primary is done. I plan on letting this sit for a good while to make it excellent, but I'm not sure the definition/purpose of the three techniques listed. Can somebody answer a couple questions please?

If the yeast is done in primary, does "secondary fermentation" require adding more fermentables to restart the process? What is the purpose of this?

Or is secondary fermentation basically the same as bulk aging?

What is the advantage/disadvantage of bulk aging vs bottle aging (assuming that no carbonation is added and the cider will be bottled still.) Do they accomplish the same thing?

thanks a lot!

__________________
jaginger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-27-2009, 12:28 AM   #2
jaginger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 482
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

bump a dump!

__________________
jaginger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-27-2009, 12:38 AM   #3
blackwaterbrewer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: virginia beach
Posts: 736
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

i have found that a 4 vessel process will reap the best results for mead/cider. initial fementation is OPEN for 2-3 days if using suspended fruit. next is a larger than batch PRIMARY. Third, is a vessel that may or may not facilitate additional fermentation. i like to leave the product in this vessel for at least 3 months and then bottle. nothing conditions a yeast beverage like pressure of carbonation, but something magical happens in the bulk "aging" as well. if you dont use OPEN fermentation, do a primary for the duration of the heavy activity, then rack to a secondary, with little regard for sucking up sediment . let this bubble for a while and then rack it again to let it clear for several months. after this, bottle, put it in a case and nail it shut with a sign that says "if you open this before 1 year you are a weak minded wiper of other men's behinds.

__________________
it's not the blood you've spilled that gets you what you want, its the blood you share. friends, family, community: these are the most valuable things a man can have.

Primary-
Lagering-
Primary-
secondary-
secondary-
on tap- lemongrass kolsch
on tap- stout
on tap- small mead
bottle-sweet mead
bottle-
blackwaterbrewer is offline
embreedow Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-29-2009, 04:36 AM   #4
chefmike
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: north Georgia
Posts: 1,358
Liked 8 Times on 6 Posts
Likes Given: 10

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwaterbrewer View Post
after this, bottle, put it in a case and nail it shut with a sign that says "if you open this before 1 year you are a weak minded wiper of other men's behinds.
A literary masterpiece...
__________________
Reformation Brewery: We went professional
Obsessing over: starting a local brewery (hence I am not here much these days!), Pickles, my wife, 2 year old and 5 year old, my chevy 6.5L diesel Suburban
Reading: fall of giants by ken follett
Building: gardens, recipes, and trailer mounted smoker/ wood pizza oven
chefmike is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-29-2009, 05:51 PM   #5
SeamusMac
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 618
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

I'm making a straight apple juice and yeast (Wyeast 3068) cider and I'm not going to be using a secondary. I started the 19L of cider in a better bottle, it's been in there bubbling away for 3 weeks. I'm going to leave it for 3 more weeks before bottling and taking the first sample I'm going to take 1L of the cider out at 4 weeks and let it sit for an additional month in a demijohn before bottling, just to see if a secondary stage benefits the cider at all. Somehow I doubt that the secondary will benefit the cider at all, but it could help avoid picking up too much yeast during racking to the bottling bucket.

__________________

Primary: Edwort's Apfelwein
Primary: Brewingcentres Pale Ale
Primary: Brewcraft - Cheap 'n' Shiddy Bavarian Wheat

Kegged: Brewcraft - Cheap 'n' Shiddy Bavarian Wheat
Kegged: Brewcraft - Enhanced Dutch Lager
On Tap: Brewcraft - Irish Stout

SeamusMac is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-29-2009, 06:52 PM   #6
Tusch
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Spring Valley, Ohio
Posts: 1,381
Liked 9 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Well leaving it on the lees will most certainly create different flavors. That is not to say it is necessary, but there are benefits and differences to both. But assuming it won't have an effect is wrong. Plus you are right, the more times you rack the less and less sediment there is when you bottle. I know yooper continues to rack until it no longer drops any lees at all and is crystal clear.

__________________
Meads: Hababero and Sarrano Capiscumel, Show Mead possibly getting split and flavored, and 12 gallons of Bochet Deliciousness
Ciders:3 Ciders with differing additives TBD, Strawberry/Apple Cider
Wine: Black Cherry Vanilla Port
Tusch is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-09-2009, 01:50 AM   #7
JoeSponge
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Belly of the beast, DC, Torment
Posts: 180
Liked 5 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default Bulk vs ... results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeamusMac View Post
I'm making a straight apple juice and yeast (Wyeast 3068) cider and
1. I'm not going to be using a secondary.
I started the 19L of cider in a better bottle, it's been in there bubbling away for 3 weeks.
2. I'm going to leave it for 3 more weeks before bottling and taking the first sample
3. I'm going to take 1L of the cider out at 4 weeks and
4. let it sit for an additional month in a demijohn before bottling, just to see if a secondary stage benefits the cider at all...
Seamus,
Did you ever follow this through? Any results?

It's fortuitous that I should find this thread, but I still don't have a comfortable grasp of the whys or whats...
I don't understand wx there's any benefit betwixt "bottle and age" and "bulk age and bottle"... especially if the requirement is to "bulk age, bottle and age".
__________________

Oh my gosh, but cider's neat.
Taste's so sweet, it can't be beat.
Good in the cold or in the heat.
Oh my gosh, but cider's neat!

JoeSponge is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-09-2009, 01:59 AM   #8
jaginger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 482
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

I don't think anybody here really knows the difference

__________________

Last edited by jaginger; 07-09-2009 at 04:16 AM.
jaginger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-09-2009, 11:08 PM   #9
SeamusMac
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 618
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSponge View Post
Seamus,
Did you ever follow this through? Any results?

It's fortuitous that I should find this thread, but I still don't have a comfortable grasp of the whys or whats...
I don't understand wx there's any benefit betwixt "bottle and age" and "bulk age and bottle"... especially if the requirement is to "bulk age, bottle and age".
Strangely enough, my cider developed a peanut butter flavour and aroma that I found a little bit off-putting. I suspect that this is the result of fermenting with Wyeast 3068 3-4*F below the minimum recommended temperature. I ended up racking it into a secondary at 4 weeks and leaving it to bulk-age in secondary for a further 7 weeks if I remember correctly...

I never planned to let it sit for this long but school got in the way and when I finally bottled it the SG was something like 1.004! I guess one might call it lagering with a Hefe yeast ha ha, the results weren't overly spectacular. The peanut butter was gone, thankfully. It tasted awfully similar to Apfelwein made with Lalvin EC-1118 after only a month in primary, so I don't think that it was worth the extra time with this particular yeast, at least not at such low temps.

Furthermore, I brought out a 6-pack after a month in the bottle and even though I stirred up some sediment during bottling there was zero carbonation. I have about 17L of the stuff in 500mL bottles waiting to be opened on my birthday in mid-September so I'm hoping it'll have improved by then.
__________________

Primary: Edwort's Apfelwein
Primary: Brewingcentres Pale Ale
Primary: Brewcraft - Cheap 'n' Shiddy Bavarian Wheat

Kegged: Brewcraft - Cheap 'n' Shiddy Bavarian Wheat
Kegged: Brewcraft - Enhanced Dutch Lager
On Tap: Brewcraft - Irish Stout

SeamusMac is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bulk aging vs bottle aging bubbachunk Mead Forum 6 02-12-2009 05:42 PM
Bulk aging or bottle aging for big beers Frost General Techniques 4 11-21-2008 09:44 PM
Bulk vs Bottle Aging? fireball Cider Forum 2 04-19-2008 07:40 AM
Bulk vs. Bottle Aging and Maturation (long..sorry) HomerT Wine Making Forum 3 10-09-2007 01:29 AM
bottle aging vs secondary aging for a winter ale wstein General Techniques 7 09-02-2006 11:59 PM